Confined Water Padi OW - Conundrum

[Moray]

Terry, the points you are making are excellent. I agree with you: there is an incident, and at this stage no one needs to suppose guilt /innocence, but simply have the matter cleared up. The whole point of an organisation such as PADI is to have standards, and a body to regulate them.

If there is an error in the representation of this incident due, say, to innocent ignorance on the part of the novice, then that will be cleared up and life will go on as before. If there has been a break of standards (i.e. training depth), that too will become apparent and properly dealt with.

PADI takes dues for membership, and so we should use the offered services.

Just my 0.03 (inflation everywhere)

[PADI-Paddy]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Err there hasnt been an enquiry, because following your "let's not judge
mantra" nobody had the cahonas to tell PADI! Probably too busy being fair and open minded!!!!!!
Of course eventually there is a real possibilty that it all goes too far and
there is a serious incident, where PADI & HSE will be involved.
TerryH

Terry are you on some type of medication.. Its MY FAULT. catch yourself on man !!!!

Originally Posted by TerryH

The information was relayed directly to another PADI instructor who as
part of his agreement with PADI, has a mandatory duty to inform them if
he as much as BELIEVES there is a QA offence committed.
TerryH

Terry you ever think this should be directed at Chardy (who claims to be an IDC staff instructor) yet doesnt know wether he should report the matter

Originally Posted by TerryH

You also seem to have missed the point that by knowing about it and doing
nothing, citing "open minded fairness" you have actually judged him based
on your perception of the facts. If we are being open-minded about
supposed innocence, then shouldnt we be the same about supposed guilt.
TerryH

Terry this may come as a shock. YOU ARE INNOCENT, totally, until proven guilty. I believe Padi in their wisdom believe that also. Therefore they cannot and will not have as you call it "supposed guilt" I hope this helps you understand the concept.



As I told you before read my posts, carefully or even twice, I believe it will help you not come across as angry !!

Chardy by the way if a student came to you and asked you the questions you posted what would your reply be?


my tuppence worth


PS Calm down think of your heart he he he

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

Terry this may come as a shock. YOU ARE INNOCENT, totally, until proven guilty. I believe Padi in their wisdom believe that also. Therefore they cannot and will not have as you call it "supposed guilt" I hope this helps you understand the concept.

As I told you before read my posts, carefully or even twice, I believe it will help you not come across as angry !!

Sorry you are very, very wrong and making that sort of statement is
pretty dangerous if it stops a reader telling PADI.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but at what point do we say, "hang on
that's not only wrong, but it might get someone killed"?


How about factual scenario then (this happend about 9 years ago in one of
the scandanavian countries). I've made up the questions, but the incident
was real.

You are working in a National airlines main office. A pilot who is due to take
out a 747 is signing in and when he walks past, you notice a faint wiff of
what smells like alcohol.

Do you:
a) Ask him what it is and accept any plausible explanation, giving him the
benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty routine).

b) Call your supervisor knowing that he would be immediatley suspended,
stopped from flying until his story can be proven and assume the worst
until proved otherwise (guilty until proven innocent routine).


So are you prepared to use the "YOU ARE INNOCENT, totally, until proven guilty" PC mantra with 350 lives at stake?

TerryH

[PADI-Paddy]

Terry,

It is the cornerstone of most decent democracies:

Innocent until proven guilty.... Now please what part of that statement is causing you anguish and ignorance.

Taking the airline pilot example. I don't know the legal requirements absolute but I do believe an airline pilot is NOT ALLOWED to consume alcohol not only before a flight but some days before a flight. I would report him. He would be tested, probably suspended until it was 'cleared' up. BUT and this is the crunch......... he would be INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY.

If you take the example of a drink driver. a policeman suspects alcohol and tests him he is 3 times over the limit, until that man gets to court and is convicted he is NOT guilty of any offence. In both cases they are suspected, there are allegations but my friend they are innocent.

Getting back to the alleged breach of PADI Standards:

In my first post I did say

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

I would first of all keep an open mind on all this.

You are innocent until proven guilty !!

There are always two sides to every story, as has been said before I would try and contact the instructor and if the student diver wishes, advise her how she makes a complaint.

my tuppence worth ?

Now what shocks me is your aggressive posturing with my post.

All I wanted was an open mind with an allegation............. just a thought
"she is a witch. whos a witch...... her.... how do you know.. someone told me........... SHE IS A WITCH BURN HER !!!!!!!!!!

[darthmoll]

the thng is, very simply teaching divers in water that is too deep to stand up in is a breach of standards, no argument. If the instructor has a clean record he will probably get a slap on the wrist and told not to do it again, end of story, but he should be held to account for it, the standards protect us all.

I am not sure why padi paddy, feels he can stick his 2p worth in to this as i am not sure that he has even passed hs OWSI and as such can be that up on S&P, but i guess this an open forum and as such that allows any tom dick or abdul to post their thought on any given matter.

Sore ears IMO can happen at any time and if the student could not, or did not make it clear to the staff on the course what was happening, they can hardley be held accountable for that, but then one of your students hurting their ears is not AFAIAC a breach of standards, i am ready to be corrected.

[Chardy]

620375 - Go and check for yourself
It should tell you - Paul A. Chard, in status and my qualifications, if you can't get access, I'll post them.

First thing I did after the conversation with the lady was call PADI, that was before I posted it on here.

Why ? I know what our agreement with PADI is, I wanted to see what other people would do in the same circumstance.

The bigger question is the HSE. The lady called the HSE, who were not that bothered. The lady was injured and needed medical attention as an instructor you have to report that to the appropriate authority. I wonder if that was done.

Why did I get involved. I spent 4 years working in the UK as an Instuctor ans took a lot of time, effort and expense to stay within the guidelines. At one in land site my DM and I had to rescue 3 students and the 'Rescue' diver from an out of status, no medical, hole in his BC, no dry suit Instructor who lost OW students over a 22 metre drop off. One of them was slightly injured and there was no medical kit or 02. It really pi$$sed me off.

It's one of the resons Instructors can't earn good money, cowboys cutting corners

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

Innocent until proven guilty.... Now please what part of that statement is causing you anguish and ignorance.

No Ignorance about it. Luckily there are enough posts on this thread
to make sure nobody gets the wrong idea.

When talking about safety issues there is no such thing as Innocent until
proven guilty. The assumption MUST ALWAYS be that there is a problem
and that the individual MUST be investigated or suspended.

That action in itself infers guilt and so you cannot use the term Innocent
until proven guilty. If that was the case then why is he suspended?
Would you do that if he was Innocent?

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

Taking the airline pilot example. I don't know the legal requirements absolute but I do believe an airline pilot is NOT ALLOWED to consume alcohol not only before a flight but some days before a flight. I would report him. He would be tested, probably suspended until it was 'cleared' up. BUT and this is the crunch......... he would be INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY. .

He was suspended until he had a blood test (it was negative). The smell
was a solvent used to try and clean a small biro leak on his blazer pocket.
The airline had no choice, but to assume that he had taken alcohol, suspend
him and have him tested. That is guilty until proven Innocent.

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

If you take the example of a drink driver. a policeman suspects alcohol and tests him he is 3 times over the limit, until that man gets to court and is convicted he is NOT guilty of any offence. In both cases they are suspected, there are allegations but my friend they are innocent..

Ok so what if he wasnt over the limit? Can a policeman arrest him on a whim
and impound his car? Nope, because he really is Innocent.

But if he was over the limit then there would be an assumption of guilt,
he is arrested, taken to the police station for a blood test and his car is
impounded. If he was being treated as Innocent until proven guilty,
then he would NOT be taken to jail or his car impounded.

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

Getting back to the alleged breach of PADI Standards:
In my first post I did say
Now what shocks me is your aggressive posturing with my post.
All I wanted was an open mind with an allegation

Still dont get it do you?
Ok lets make it very simple - Two extremes.
You = Open-mind = not sure (could go either way)
Me = Hes guilty = sure.

Result you = Might/might not tell PADI.
Me = Tell PADI.

It's not my job to decide guilt or innocence. Nor is it up to me to interpret
or assess whether he has gone to far or not. That is entirly what PADI are there for. At least my concience is clear.

But ........

In your case you might/might not tell PADI and what if you didnt and there
was an incident? What value would you put on an open-mind then?

TerryH

[PADI-Paddy]

Terry,

We have come to the end of the road Im afraid, whilst it is obvious you are unable to understand the concept of Innocent 'til proven guilty it is further compounded by the fact your clueless.


Now some may say I am being nasty. I dont mean to be, what I am saying is the truth. I am not responsible for the gaps in your education and thought process. Let me explain.

By your standards........... if you are suspended your guilty... until proven innocent. Now this goes against every tenet in criminal and civil law in most decent democracies.

Lets take the case of British soldiers killing a civilian say in Northern Ireland or IRAQ. They are charged with the crime, and taken off duty perhaps in custody.

According to you they are GUILTY.

THE STATE (according to terry's world) has nothing to prove, in fact in terry's world it is completely turned on its head......... the soldiers have now to prove their innocence........

It cannot be explained in more simple terms... it doesnt get any easier than this Terry. Forgetting about PADI do you understand the concept I am endeavouring to explain

[darthmoll]

Originally Posted by Chardy

It's one of the resons Instructors can't earn good money, cowboys cutting corners

Very true, get rid of the cowboys

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by PADI-Paddy

It cannot be explained in more simple terms... it doesnt get any easier than this Terry. Forgetting about PADI do you understand the concept I am endeavouring to explain

Sorry I'm too "clueless" due to "gaps in my education and thought processes".

T.