Why not a KISS?

[And]

Why not a kiss?


Because any rebreather isn't really worth it unless you are doing trimix, and then it would have to be deeper trimix too. Loads more risk and very little, if any, benefit.

Andy

[Robert]

Dived the Rotorua on Sunday - about 40mins at 53m - Natasha worked out that the gas (combined oxygen and diluent) that she'd used for the dive equated to 9 bar from her old twin 10s.


And once the KISS valve is set properly I check the handset about every five - ten minutes - or even just the VR3 as it's connected to an oxygen sensor in one of the counterlungs.

[robprice]

Originally Posted by And

Why not a kiss?


Because any rebreather isn't really worth it unless you are doing trimix, and then it would have to be deeper trimix too. Loads more risk and very little, if any, benefit.

Andy

Explain why.
Used correct they are very safe and easy to use.
You do not need to use trimix to get the use from any R/B.
They are good to use at all depths.

Robprice

[And]

Hi

Pick an average recreational ocean nitrox wreck dive and you tell me how the 'advantages' outweigh the 'disadvantages'.

As I see it;

Advantages
No bubbles so good for photos
Warmer breathe
More gas
shorter deco (allegedly)

Disadvantages
Longer equipment setup
More failure points so greater likelihood of missed dives on the surface.
More monitoring required during the dive
Added risks such as hypoxia, hypercapnia
More equipment maintenance after the dive

Taking a recreational wreck dive much of the advantages are pointless, as its the tides which really govern your bottom time, the exposure is short enough not to worry about warmth, deco is minimal.

If you are wanting to do deep, deep trimix wrecks, then its a valid concept, but unless you absolutely need to reduce bubbles for photography I can't see any 'benefits'. You can kid yourself if you like, to justify the purchase of an expensive toy, but in recreational diving, thats just what it is.

Andy

[wreckweasel]

For me, one of the big drivers to go CCR was gas logistics, since I like to dive in places off the beaten track.

In this situation, your choices on OC revolve around multiple twinsets, or taking a portable compressor. Im not suggesting thats a compelling argument on its own, merely that it was a consideration for me. Like many decisions, mine wasnt driven by any single factor, rather it was the culmination of lots of smaller benefits.

In the <40m range, I prefer to be on OC if its a well supported dive site.


/Z

[Janos]

Well, I was hoping that this was going to be more of a 'given that I'm going to get a rebreather, why shouldn't i get the KISS' thread. But I'm happy if the thread drifts a little.

Basically there are two main reasons I want to go CCR.

1) Trimix. I'm not mix trained and this is the way my diving is heading. I like the idea of having one dil tank [1] that I use for every dive that I do, be it 30m or 50m. I'm sure I would use mix on more dives if I were diving CC compared to OC.

2) Gas consumption. I plan a dive on a SAC of 24 l/min. This is quite high, but then I'm a big lad. [2] I'm now at the point where diving twin 12s and a 7l stage I'm ending dives because I've run out of gas [3]. I don't really want to go down the two stage route just yet as that's getting to be silly.

Janos

[1] - Yes I know it's not that straightforward.
[2] - If anyone suggests I start going to the gym then I'm going to get my lego-studded towel out and whip their arse until it bleeds.
[3] - No, they're not empty you fool.

[wreckweasel]

Janos,


Possible reasons quoted not to get a KISS;

1. Support. It comes from canada. I have to say that everyone I know has found gordon's support excellent, so far.

2. WOB. The KISS does have a poorer WOB than the Inspiration. I've not found this to be a problem, frankly I let my breathing dictate my work rate and not the other way around.

3. Water traps/dumps. The kiss has a minimal water trap in the base of the scrubber (which most people pack with a sports towel or tampon to absorb the water). If you get a large flood, frankly you're onto OC bailout. Having said that Ive managed a reasonably substantial flood (through my own stupidity) and still managed a 2 hour dive on the scrubber after (again, my own stupidity)

4. Offboard gas plugins. The KISS doesnt have one as stock, but they're easily added.

5. Tools. You need tools to break down the kiss loop. Its a nut spinner, a screwdriver and a "dick" tool (don't ask). These arent hard to carry around at all.



Note, all my comments above are directed at the classic unit. Theres a reasonable mix of KISS users on rebreatherworld if you want more info; http://www.rebreatherworld.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18

/Zak

[robprice]

Originally Posted by And

Hi


Disadvantages
Longer equipment setup
More failure points so greater likelihood of missed dives on the surface.
More monitoring required during the dive
Added risks such as hypoxia, hypercapnia
More equipment maintenance after the dive

You can kid yourself if you like, to justify the purchase of an expensive toy, but in recreational diving, thats just what it is.

Andy

All fair points.....But

1 Longer equipment setup......
That is not realy true, setting up twins and stages, they dont put them selfs together or check them selfs.
Also that is all part of diving setting up equipment.

2 More failure points so greater likelihood of missed dives on the surface....
Again not true.
As for OC 1st stages fail as well.
Only differance is the lecies on a R/B as all equipment serviced and looked after and kept in good condition will last.

3 More monitoring required during the dive........
On OC you are still monitoring ..... depth, time,air no change on a R/B as such.

4 Added risks such as hypoxia, hypercapnia.........
True but with training and no short cuts this is reduced as in all sports there will always remain some risk.

5 More equipment maintenance after the dive.........
As for point 1 OC equipment does not put its self away.
Again this is part of diving equipment loooking after and cleaning.

6 Purchase of an expensive toy........
It is only expensive if you can not afford to buy one..


But all said everyone has there own opinions and make there own choice at the end of the day.
As long as you are safe and feel safe why change your ways..


Robprice

[Robert]

1) Trimix. I'm not mix trained and this is the way my diving is heading. I like the idea of having one dil tank [1] that I use for every dive that I do, be it 30m or 50m. I'm sure I would use mix on more dives if I were diving CC compared to OC.

This year we've had one fill of 18/40 in our twinsets - it's lasted all season decanting across to the diluent cylinders, and for diving anything from the Scylla to the Merchant Royal (and will now last even longer when the gas booster arrives tomorrow!). Our biggest expense on a dive weekend seems to be getting the argon cylinder filled with air (anywhere from £3.50 through £1.00 to free !).

[NotDeadYet]

Hi Janos,

reasons not to buy one... er... I suppose they aren't cheap. If you find one 2nd hand then they sell fast and keep their value. I had to fly to Cyprus to collect mine.

They are extremely straightforward, you can strip the whole unit with about three tools. I'm not sure about there being lots of hose clamps, mine has two securing the loop to the can and two holding the DSV to the hoses, it takes about 20s to undo each one. The hardest part is probably attaching the lungs, but it isn't the end of the world. The whole thing is user serviceable, and building it yourself really teaches you the ins and outs. Cleaning is easy too. It is extremely well thought out and well engineered. I like that you need a tool to disassemble it as it removes the divers' urge to fettle and fondle unnecessarily. It also gives you a way to get rid of people who ask to see inside it

In use, I don't find the backmounted lungs noticeably hard to breathe. I actually found it easier breathing the KISS with a flooded loop than from my OC bailout. I don't like front mounted lungs, I don't like clutter and I don't like the idea that I could crush the lungs crawling through something -- the KISS lungs are enclosed in an ally shell. My KISS isn't rigged much different to the way my twinset was.

Things happen slowly on a rebreather, I don't think you would be checking the handsets any more often than a YBOD's. To me a manual rebreather doesn't have anything to second guess, from what I've seen a lot of ECCR users seem to spend a lot of time talking about how they know the controller is working right. With the KISS, the controller is between your ears. I probably check the handsets as often as I'd be checking my computer or SPG.

On the older Classics, the left side is very busy, handsets, KISS valve, wing inflator, stages (I wear mine DIR stylie). I think you can move the KISS valve on the new units to the right. I haven't used the new plastic valves but with the old stainless ones the weight of the valve makes it instantly quite clear whether you've grabbed the KISS valve or the wing inflator. I'd be worried the plastic valve wasn't so clear from touch only.

The nice thing with the KISS is you can set it up however you like, you aren't confined to a crappy wing, proprietary harness and dodgy Autoair for bailout.

There are some downsides, water in the loop goes straight into the bottom of the scrubber. However, I flooded mine (my fault) but apart from a short run on OC, I stayed on the loop for about 1.5hrs of deco without any problem. You can't plug offboard gas in either (in a standard unit) but I suppose you only need to if you have mismanaged your dil supplies or had some kind of leak that you couldn't isolate -- in which case plugging a whole j-bottle of gas in isn't going to do you any good, it will just leak away too.

Gordon & Kim's service in my experience has been spot on. I needed some parts for mine and they sent it free of charge, got them within a week of ordering them -- not bad considering they are on the other side of the world.

Best bet is find an instructor willing to give you a demo. Try one of Andy Hayhurst's RB days.

Originally Posted by And

Why not a kiss?


Because any rebreather isn't really worth it unless you are doing trimix, and then it would have to be deeper trimix too. Loads more risk and very little, if any, benefit.

Andy

I'm struggling with my recent flare up of Tourettes Syndrome here!!!

I'm sure this is just a DIR party-line troll rather than any experience of deep diving. In a way I agree, anything you can do on a single bottle is a waste of time on a RB. But I'd say any twinset diving, regardless of the flavour of gas inside, is just as easily done on a RB. Maybe even more so. <20m & no deco I'd go OC because it's less hassle, anything else I dive on the KISS. When the poo hits the air-con I think a RB offers a hell of a lot more survival options, I feel an awful lot more comfortable diving CC than I did on OC. And any dive now can be on trimix. I'd love to know what you base this assertion on, the cynic in me would guess nothing substantiated. But it wasn't that long ago nitrox was demonised, along with computers, wings, long hoses, manifolds, even SPGs.

Costs per dive... I buy a 12.2 of 100% O2 for about £20 and decant from that, refilling at 100bar in the RB bottle, I get about 6 fills. That averages about 12 dives. So about £1.65 per dive for O2.

Dil, I get a twinset filled with air and decant from that, about a fiver. So maybe 6 or 7 dives worth, call it a quid per dive. Trimix, probably around £8 a fill. Bail out gases are a one off investment as you rarely use them.

Lime... buying a keg at a time is around £70. You will get 1-4 dives from a fill, around 7 fills from a keg. So maybe £3 a dive?

So for a dive, you're looking at maybe £6 a dive. Compared to a twinset of nitrox plus a deco stage (which you will use as opposed to a bailout which you won't) that's quite a saving. Sure you need to factor in new cells every 12-18months but most people I guess will stagger this, doing one every six months. It's only about £40 a shot -- how much will you spend on a reg service? Batteries, £2.50 for about 40dives.

Cheers,

Stuart