Incident discussions

[Allan Carr]

The discussion appears to be all around fatal incidents. Is there not a lot to be learned from non-fatal ones as well? Many of us will have made mistakes or been involved in incidents which could have been avoided by better planning which had the potential to be very serious. I know I have, fortunately on only a very few occasions. Should we not have a forum where we can post these as well so that others can learn from our mishaps?

[ray]

Originally Posted by Madfish

When you get back from the pub - can you tell me when I will ever stop learning? Every single piece of information I glean, whether from buddies, magazines or forums - I hope goes to make me a better diver.
For me read " Forum - noun virtual pub - everyone welcome - take everything with a pinch of salt. "

And long may you learn grasshopper, but remember rubber necking causes more accidents, than it prevents and that is all your doing.

If you do not no the true facts then you are working on speculation, following muck carts and thinking it was a wedding syndrome, wait for the official report read it and if your diving is suspect then retrain or re address your faults, but you really should no if you are doing something wrong or dangerous, or your training was not up to speed. Do not take what people say on forums as right, learn from an instructor at least you have some come back even if it is to tell them they are a plonker!.

Right I'm off up to Oban on mi Joly's for the week, might see some of you up there.

[MattS]

Frankly the one that troubles me is "Simple freeflow while narked out of my skull". Predicted response? "Dither". If I drown doing that I trust you won't fill up a thread with 'condolances' as my kids don't read YD but resolutions not to dive below a certain depth if you can't get helium.

That is a very good example of how someones life assurance could be compromised by speculation on the internet.

Lets just imagine that after this hypothetical event YDrs reach the consensus 'Nigel screwed up...he should have been using Helium.' Of course not being there at the time the YD consensus is pure speculation and there is absolutely no way to know that Helium would have prevented the death. Maybe Nigel did not dither, maybe he reacted as well as anyone could...and died anyway, how would we know? However, the Life Assurance lawyers see a board with 2,000 expert members deciding that the victim was negligent for not using Helium and the family have a fight on their hands. Does anyone want that, I damn well hope not!

On the wider questions. It is perfectly natural for people to want to rationalise the cause of death. Self affirmation, so that we can convince ourselves that we will not be the subject of a similar tragedy. I think that is why these discussions always involve lots of speculation, no one wants to admit that they do not know the reason another diver died. It is human nature really, we want to believe that the victim made a simple mistake that we ourselves could not possibly make.

MarkC said 10% of incidents are the ones he thinks 'There by the grace of God go I' Well I used to think like that, I don't anymore. Every diving fatality report I read I think 'There by the grace of God go I' No one jumps into the water thinking they will fail to come back, no one is that stupid. Tragically the lesson is learnt the hard way, diving does not tolerate mistakes and humans can't stop making them.

Scenarios fine. Anecdotes fine. Non-fatal incidents fine. Speculation fine. Stating that 'Nigel screwed up...' No I don't think that is acceptable at all. I find it offensive to be perfectly honest as Nigel was the only person party to the real facts.

[Duncan Price]

Originally Posted by MattS

That is a very good example of how someones life assurance could be compromised by speculation on the internet.

<snip>
Tragically the lesson is learnt the hard way, diving does not tolerate mistakes and humans can't stop making them.

<etc.>

I couldn't agree more on both points:

1. This forum can be read by anyone and interpreted the way the reader sees fit.

2. We all think that we are immortal until we find out we're not.

Oh, and another thing...

It's very easy to gob off from behind a keyboard when you are bored at work.

[Roobydoo]

Originally Posted by Allan Carr

The discussion appears to be all around fatal incidents. Is there not a lot to be learned from non-fatal ones as well? Many of us will have made mistakes or been involved in incidents which could have been avoided by better planning which had the potential to be very serious. I know I have, fortunately on only a very few occasions. Should we not have a forum where we can post these as well so that others can learn from our mishaps?

Hit the nail squarely on the head! If those people are brave enough to discuss "what happened to me/on my dive" then we should all take note. As has been covered on many of the threads so far, all of us can learn even the tiniest of lessons from other people's experiences. It does not have to be a fatality to be a worthy lesson learned..

Examples of kit failure, less than adequate planning etc can help us all. I strongly believe that this is where the real strength of the YD forum lies. This is then without conjecture, assumptions or the like.

This sort of forum would get my vote..

[Keith L]

Originally Posted by Roobydoo

Examples of kit failure, less than adequate planning etc can help us all. I strongly believe that this is where the real strength of the YD forum lies. This is then without conjecture, assumptions or the like.

This sort of forum would get my vote..

Like many I would support such a forum, I'd contribute my own cock-ups, you would have the facts because I was there to tell you them, there would be no potential legal or moral problems with doing so. Likewise with scenarios, getting all of those into one place, along with real incidents, would be a valuable forum IMHO.

But there it stops. We DO NOT engage in discussion and conjecture on fatal or even serious injury incidents. We can comment (possibly) on the coroners/FAI findings, although please bear in mind that is not the end of it. I am aware of divers being chased through the civil courts years after such events, discussions on forums could well feature in such actions.

I cannot and I will not make specific references. But if you believe that this talk of legal implications is "bogey man" stuff then I am afraid that I have to tell you that you are very, very wrong. On that FACT you will just have to trust me, but I certainly will not comment on fatal incidents and I would very strongly advise others not to as well.

Keith L

[MATTBIN]

Keith
I assume you are the same Keith on the Bsac forum? And although listed as a new member here are in fact very senior within the running of said club forum?

Matt

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by ray

And long may you learn grasshopper, but remember rubber necking causes more accidents, than it prevents and that is all your doing.

Right I'm off up to Oban on mi Joly's for the week, might see some of you up there.

I said "information" not accidents and/or fatalities - include in this kit reviews, drills, advice, trip reports etc.
Also last bit of my post said - treat everything with a pinch of salt - because some of you are so up yourself, I wouldn't believe you if you told me water was wet, without checking for myself
This is the second "hit & run" posting - ie I've said my piece, you are all wrong and I am going out now so no-one can correct me.
Well I am going out now too - so yah boo sucks!!
tap tap tap tap tap SLAM

[Keith L]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

Keith
I assume you are the same Keith on the Bsac forum? And although listed as a new member here are in fact very senior within the running of said club forum?

Matt

Yes I am Matt, and it's because of what I know that I am very much against the original concept of a discussion forum to discuss things like the Stoney incident. Were such a discussion started on the BSAC forums then I would have no choice but to remove it. The potential implications for the entire club, all divers and any members who our insurance was protecting would be too big to let it stay.

The risks of moral, legal and even political ramifications of uninformed speculation are just too high IMHO. I cannot see what would be gained over and above what can be gained from official reports and contextural discussion of the overall incident reports.

Keith L

[Darren27]

I dont usually see eye to eye with Keith, but on this one I have to agree with him. The words, worms, can and open spring to mind.