Diver Run Over As She Surfaces - Update

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Beardy

Could the rather stupid watchman on the tug claim that he did not understand the A flag denoted divers down, as being dutch he only recognised the international divers flag? Or, as he was sailing in British waters does hehave a leagal oblicgation to familiarise himself with our signals?

The A flag is part of international regulations. Also when Andy and he were on a crash course he was obliged (again by the international rules of the road) to turn to starboard but didn't.

Janos

[jamesp]

Originally Posted by Janos

The A flag is part of international regulations. Also when Andy and he were on a crash course he was obliged (again by the international rules of the road) to turn to starboard but didn't.

Janos

Just a curious question, if the deliberate crash course had resulted in a collision whos fault would it be? I am asking because I have been on the club rib when we have put it between a fishing boat and divers in the water. There is a big difference between a 30 foot lobster pot boat and a 100tonne tug, but the general principle is the same. This is a genuine question, please feel free to bump it to another thread if needs be.

[Rod]

Originally Posted by jamesp

Just a curious question, if the deliberate crash course had resulted in a collision whos fault would it be?

Taken away from the context of this thread;

Despite all the 'Rules of the road' every master must do all he can to avoid a collision. So if you put yourself on a deliberate collision course and a crash ensued you would still be in the wrong.
You must also take into account the width of the fairway and if vessels are constrained by their draft. This happens a lot in London where small boats believe they have the 'right of way' but the larger vessels can not move out of the channel without going aground. A large vessel may also take longer to stop or deviate from it's current course.

[Fiona]

Originally Posted by Beardy

Could the rather stupid watchman on the tug claim that he did not understand the A flag denoted divers down, as being dutch he only recognised the international divers flag? Or, as he was sailing in British waters does hehave a leagal oblicgation to familiarise himself with our signals?

I may be wrong but as far as I know the "A Flag" is the international "I have divers down" signal.

Opps sorry Janos didn't see your post before I posted mine

[Beardy]

Originally Posted by Fiona

I may be wrong but as far as I know the "A Flag" is the international "I have divers down" signal.

That was always my understanding before I got involved in actually diving. From what I've read here and elsewhere though, the diagonal white line on a red field seems to be used in more places then the A flag. In fact it seems that the UK is one of the few places that it is used. Of course I don't have a lot of practical experience in this though... Maybee I'll start another thread to ask whose seen the A flag in far flung forign places to denote divers down.

[Rod]

Originally Posted by Beardy

From what I've read here and elsewhere though, the diagonal white line on a red field seems to be used in more places then the A flag. In fact it seems that the UK is one of the few places that it is used.

The red and white one is an American thing and you see it wherever they have a strong influence like America or the Carribean. Everywhere else uses the A flag.

[Gareth J]

In answer to the previously asked question here is an exert from the "Rules of the Road" (Sea), relating to diving operations, rule 27 e is more relevent to the vessel size we generally use! I haven't bothered with all the other related rules as they don't apply.
NOTE - the A flag IS THE SPECIFIED INTERNATIONAL SIGNAL, the Red White flag is a more localised signal (generally areas of US influence (like bouyage)). (Displaying of lights etc is related to vessel size).

Rule 27



Vessels Not Under Command or Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to maneuver, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (b)(i),(ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition when an obstruction exists, exhibit:

• (i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
• (ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass;
• (iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 30.

(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:

• (i) Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
• (ii) a rigid replica of the code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

Please Note Rule 2 below


Rule 2



Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.



You must attempt to avoid collision, even if this means that you turn the wrong way etc - primarily you must avoid endangering the vessel, thus you must avoid collision if at all possible.
If you do ram or do not give way if a likely collision is imminent you would also be prosecuted as contributing to the incident. This is as I understand it.
This is why Andy turned away at the last minute - he could not intentionally risk a collision, even though he was in the right. He also turned to starboard as specified in the rules.

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Gareth J

In answer to the previously asked question here is an exert from the "Rules of the Road" (Sea), relating to diving operations, rule 27 e is more relevent to the vessel size we generally use! I haven't bothered with all the other related rules as they don't apply.
NOTE - the A flag IS THE SPECIFIED INTERNATIONAL SIGNAL, the Red White flag is a more localised signal (generally areas of US influence (like bouyage)). (Displaying of lights etc is related to vessel size).

Rule 27



Vessels Not Under Command or Restricted in Their Ability to Maneuver d) A vessel engaged in dredging or underwater operations, when restricted in her ability to maneuver, shall exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (b)(i),(ii) and (iii) of this Rule and shall in addition when an obstruction exists, exhibit:

• (i) two all-round red lights or two balls in a vertical line to indicate the side on which the obstruction exists;
• (ii) two all-round green lights or two diamonds in a vertical line to indicate the side on which another vessel may pass;
• (iii) when at anchor, the lights or shapes prescribed in this paragraph instead of the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 30.

(e) Whenever the size of a vessel engaged in diving operations makes it impracticable to exhibit all lights and shapes prescribed in paragraph (d) of this Rule, the following shall be exhibited:

• (i) Three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
• (ii) a rigid replica of the code flag "A" not less than 1 meter in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility.

Please Note Rule 2 below


Rule 2



Responsibility

(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.

(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.



You must attempt to avoid collision, even if this means that you turn the wrong way etc - primarily you must avoid endangering the vessel, thus you must avoid collision if at all possible.
If you do ram or do not give way if a likely collision is imminent you would also be prosecuted as contributing to the incident. This is as I understand it.
This is why Andy turned away at the last minute - he could not intentionally risk a collision, even though he was in the right. He also turned to starboard as specified in the rules.

Gareth .

Now , go back and LOOK hard at the rules again. to which there are 38.

To which there are 38 not including the annex's and sub paragraphs... just the basic 38

Now, see if you can find all 17, which i have listed in my report ... PM me your answers ,,,, If you get all 17 , the same i have ... I'LL give you a whole days diving out of Dover for a prize .... get more than 17 and ya get a & a .......... You have until midday Wednesday

[Bob Cooper]

I'd be really interested to know what action (if any) is being taken against the skipper of the tug?

This is a really unfortunate event which (fortunately) has resulted in a (reasonably) happy ending. It seems to me that it could not have been prevented and Andy did all he could to prevent it.

Nevertheless, it still happened due to the wreckles action of the tugboat skipper.

What happens in these situations?

Would be interested to find out....

Bob

[Beardy]

Originally Posted by Rod

The red and white one is an American thing and you see it wherever they have a strong influence like America or the Carribean. Everywhere else uses the A flag.

So a typical case of the 'mericans deciding that they don't like the international standard, so instead try to impose a difrent standard on the world instead

Thanks for the info rod, and also to Gareth J for the fuller listing.

Like Bob Cooper I would like ot know what the likely outcome will be for the skipper, but ever the cynic I suspect that it will be like the motorist who kills through dangeruos driving, and he will get his knuckls wrapped and a fine of a few hundered pounds