I have trounced the bank!

[Arfie]

Originally Posted by Simon Lamb

As a couple of posts say, the bank is entirely within it's rights now to close your account and demand, and recieve, immediate payment of all debts, and refuse you future services.

Now that may sound alright, stuff em you say, wouldnt bank with them now anyway you say....

But then you go to open a new account at another bank, or try to get a mortgage, or try to get a loan for a new car, or try to open a mobile phone contract, and there'll be a very big question on the form... "Have you ever been refused banking services?".....

Sorry, but its just not as simple as it sounds guys....


Si

Mortgage forms do not ask if you have been refused banking services For that matter I dont recall mobile phone contracts saying it either.

This is the sort of scare tactics that allowed banks to get away with stuff for this long.

You open a new bank account BEFORE you start proceedings, nice n simple.

Arfie

[Loctite]

Originally Posted by Simon Lamb

As a couple of posts say, the bank is entirely within it's rights now to close your account and demand, and recieve, immediate payment of all debts, and refuse you future services.

Now that may sound alright, stuff em you say, wouldnt bank with them now anyway you say....

But then you go to open a new account at another bank, or try to get a mortgage, or try to get a loan for a new car, or try to open a mobile phone contract, and there'll be a very big question on the form... "Have you ever been refused banking services?".....

Sorry, but its just not as simple as it sounds guys....


Si

It is simple. I've just taken out a new phone contract, bank didn't fore close. You get a warning that in future these "charges" will be fees. The messed up with consumer law.

P.S I work for Unsecured Personal Loans, Life Insurance, Credit Card, High Interest Savings Accounts so I'm pretty clued up on this and FSA regulations

[Jezza]

As mentioned before there is a bg test case starting in the courts tomorrow. The Office of Fair Trading is taking a case though the High Court to try and establish whether the fees (sorry charges) are reasonable or not.

The banks are all postponing all claims pending the outcome of this case which is potentially months away.

You can pretty much guarantee that if they win they will apply to get all cases so far overturned and come after you for the money.

[Scuttler]

Originally Posted by Jezza

As mentioned before there is a bg test case starting in the courts tomorrow. The Office of Fair Trading is taking a case though the High Court to try and establish whether the fees (sorry charges) are reasonable or not.

The banks are all postponing all claims pending the outcome of this case which is potentially months away.

You can pretty much guarantee that if they win they will apply to get all cases so far overturned and come after you for the money.

Point is that this case if correctly contested will force the banks to enter into full disclosure (something they do not want to do). If they do (and I doubt they will) then it will be revealed that it doesn't cost them £35 to bounce a cheque etc and so they will only be entitled to pursue you for the difference between there costs and the £35. If they don't enter into full disclosure then the limit is likely to be set at £12 (as has happened with credit cards) and so the banks will be able to pursue you for the £23 difference. In reality, the banks are unlikely to pursue 9000+ people that have successfully claimed so far. Sure there might be one or two cases but the majority of people who have claimed will be unaffected.

What is going to happen is "free" banking...as we know it...will come to an end and you will have to pay for the services you use....and rightly so.

[Mark Davies]

Banks are robbing bastards and always have been, so on one hand it's nice to see you guys managing to screw them for decent sums of money - but it is ironic that you are actually entitled to this money simply because you failed to manage your accounts properly!

I'm with Tricky on this one. I have friends putting claims through for thousands and they told me I should give it a go - but I know damn well I'm not entitled to a single penny. I've only ever suffered these kind of charges once and that was because my bank chose to pay out a direct debit 4 days early (because of a bank holiday) - making the payment go out 1 day before a regular monthly transfer from another account was due to cover all the bills. They charged me for refusing the payment and I played merry hell with them at the time and had the charges refunded. I then established a permanent overdraft facility on that account just in case they did the same daft thing again.

Otherwise for the last six years I've always ensured I've either had sufficient funds or an adequate overdraft facility to meet all my payments. All it takes is a little planning - not rocket science.

So now people will basically profit from incompetent financial management - and the worse you've been, the more money you will make. As I say, how ironic! But best of luck to you all - the bastard banks deserve it!

[Scuttler]

Originally Posted by Mark Davies

So now people will basically profit from incompetent financial management - and the worse you've been, the more money you will make.

What a crock of complete and utter bollocks. It's like saying I know a copper down the road who's bent so all coppers must be bent.

I, like many people, have a variable income because I'm paid on commission. That means that when times are good then there is plenty of surplus cash, unfortunately there are times (with aviation sales it falls in the holiday months because the aircraft are flying so less is spent on maintenance and new equipment) when I have a monthly income of £200-£300. There are also lean years when companies can't afford to update their aircraft and so I can go a year earning less than £20k. I'm fortunate that recently I have negotiated a business account that allows me to run into the red without charging me, other than an annual service charge.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not objecting to being penalised but the crux of the argument for getting penalty charges refunded is that the banks are profitting from someone elses misfortune. Which in contract law is illegal. As the bank is unwilling to disclose their costs we have no choice but to reclaim the charges in full. As they contest the claim then we have no choice but to exercise our right to reclaim 8% statutory interest on the owed amount.

We are reclaiming money that we have already paid. The interest invariably accounts for little more than we would have recieved had that money been earning interest in a savings account.

What has actually been happening, for your information Mark, is that people such as myself have been subsidising your banking services. The UK has a fairly unique system. We have 'free' banking. Most banks worldwide charge for services which we receive 'free'. Only that 'free' service is paid by people that go overdrawn or overdrawn past their overdraft limit.

[Simon Lamb]

Originally Posted by Scuttler

What has actually been happening, for your information Mark, is that people such as myself have been subsidising your banking services. The UK has a fairly unique system. We have 'free' banking. Most banks worldwide charge for services which we receive 'free'. Only that 'free' service is paid by people that go overdrawn or oerdrawn past their interest rate.

If your interested, I'm in canada, and this is how my banking works...

I pay a monthly charge of between 10 and 30 dollars just for having a bank account.... there are some quarterly charges...

Most DD / debit card purchases attract a small charge of 25 - 50 cents.

I have to buy my cheque book at the rate of a buck fifty per cheque. I pay another buck fifty to have those cheques processed. (so each cheque I write costs 3 dollars).

All ABM withdrawals are a buck fifty (including my home branch). Withdrawals from other banks are often levied a further buck fifty from that bank.

My credit card has a monthly charge of 10 bucks.

To open my account I had to have a reference from my UK bank and my employer, or I would only be allowed a mickey mouse kiddies account.

If banks are stopped from penalising unauthorised o/d and so on, they'll start this lot up.

Si

[BigG]

Originally Posted by Simon Lamb

If your interested, I'm in canada, and this is how my banking works...

I pay a monthly charge of between 10 and 30 dollars just for having a bank account.... there are some quarterly charges...

Most DD / debit card purchases attract a small charge of 25 - 50 cents.

I have to buy my cheque book at the rate of a buck fifty per cheque. I pay another buck fifty to have those cheques processed. (so each cheque I write costs 3 dollars).

All ABM withdrawals are a buck fifty (including my home branch). Withdrawals from other banks are often levied a further buck fifty from that bank.

My credit card has a monthly charge of 10 bucks.

To open my account I had to have a reference from my UK bank and my employer, or I would only be allowed a mickey mouse kiddies account.

If banks are stopped from penalising unauthorised o/d and so on, they'll start this lot up.

Si

Will I be charged for banking with first direct?
Provided you credit your Bank Account or Cheque Account with at least £1,500 each month (internal transfers from first direct accounts excluded), keep an average monthly balance in excess of £1,500 or have an additional product (see next question for details) with first direct you will not incur our banking fee.

first direct charging announcement - frequently asked questions

From what i've been told (I'm in the industry) - this is a "toe in the water" and if it's successful other banks will follow suit. Eventually you will have to pay to get to your money.

G.

[Mark Davies]

Originally Posted by Scuttler

What a crock of complete and utter bollocks.

Err no, it isn't. Don't misunderstand me. I'm not for a moment saying these charges for unauthorised overdrafts are in any way fair and some of the things the banks do once these situations arise are just ridiculous in the way they exascerbate the problem. It's right that they should be repaid - as they are designed to be a punitive disincentive to go overdrawn without authority and that is illegal. My point is merely about the circumstances in which you got yourself charged in the first place.

You seem to be making some assumption that over all these years I must have been absolutely minted with no cash flow issues ever - and that this is something that just you and other people have had to deal with. Why?

Well, of course that is not the case. My point is about allowing your account to go into unauthorised overdraft in the first place. If you've prevented that from happening then you won't ever have incurred these charges. My point is, that with a small amount of effort, it's very easily prevented. It's a simple matter of management. I can appreciate that your income might be variable - at times mine has been - so the way to deal with that is by organising an authorised overdraft in advance - not waiting until it is too late! The banks don't actually want you to go overdrawn without their consent but they will fall over themselves to lend you money and rarely refuse any reasonable request for an overdraft. All you have to do is make the effort. If you've been refused an overdraft facility it's probably because you've not managed your account well previously, but if you demonstrate to your bank that you are thinking ahead and planning they very rarely say no.

If I've been able to do it (and at times when I've been really short of money) I see no reason why anybody else can't. That was my point.

Like I said in my first post, the one time I did incur such a charge was when the bank paid out a DD several days before it was due. Now before this I didn't realise they would or even could do this, so got caught out. They accepted it was their fault really and in no way a result of me failing to manage my funds so refunded the charges, but the first thing I did was ensure there was an overdraft facility on that account to cover the eventuality that they do it again. Simple - basic account management. Not rocket science.

Originally Posted by Scuttler

What has actually been happening, for your information Mark, is that people such as myself have been subsidising your banking services.

Now don't be silly. The amount of money banks make from personal account charges is absolutely minute compared to what they make from corporate banking. These charges you are reclaiming barely even register in their accounts, so the suggestion you are subsidising anything is just plain fantasy. That's not how banking makes its money. My banking services are more than adequately funded by the interest the bank makes on the loans it can give secured against my account balances. Your charges have sod all to do with it.

[Adrian Kelland]

I think you are spot on here Mark.

I get the impression that those who constantly borrow money by going repeatedly overdrawn should not have to pay for it. The problem is of their own making. The charges for automatically sending out a letter are a different matter.


Like many people I've had both good times and bad times regarding my income. Yet I've always planned a bit, so that I have never repeatedly gone overdrawn. The 2 or 3 times I have have been by stupid mistake, for which I have paid appropriate interest. About 4 or 5 pence (yes really) in all. It is not hard, but it does take a bit of discipline.

If you know that your income is going to be variable, why not put aside some of the money from the good times to prepare for the bad. You earn a bit of interest on it, rather than paying interest on an overdraft.

Oh yes, you have to have the latest flat screen TV, car, video game, dive kit etc.

Adrian