Job vacancy- engineering turning/boring

[Wide eyed diver]

Originally Posted by Sparky750

I've found young lads don't want to work anymore let alone learn they want the £500 a day jobs straight away for doing feck all. I've come to the decision i will not take on apprentices any more it's far too much hassle and grief i've tried out 5 now the longest one lasted was 6 weeks before deciding it was far to much like hard work and he was too tired to hang around on the street corner with his mates after work. I've now got an old guy 59 i think he is a fitter by trade but was made redundant and really struggling to get work because of his age. He's fantastic never late does a good days work if he makes a mistake which we all do occasionally (obviously not me) he owns up to it instead of trying to hide it then denying he was even there and wants to learn how to avoid it next time. From now on this is the type of guy i'll be hiring he has paid for himself this year already with the quantity and quality of work he's put in he's got a big bonus coming at christmas (i've never felt i needed to pay someone extra before) . Fcuk the young scrotes keep your eyes out for older people who can't get work again because of age

The problem then is that all youngsters get treated the same - there are kids out there who really want to work and just be given a chance to show what they're worth. My son would dearly love an apprenticeship in an engineering trade (he's particularly interested in anything to do with boats), but has found the 2 "apprenticeships" he has so far tried out resulted in him working his butt off, being told he needed to be self employed paying his own stamp and responsible for sorting out all his own tax, NI etc then not even paying him anyway so it's no wonder he only lasted around 6 weeks - would you continue to work for someone who tells you that they will train you, give you an apprenticeship etc then mess you about, get you running around and doing all the work, then not paying and not giving any training etc either? He has applied for any number of jobs/apprenticeships - most don't even bother to acknowledge. So, come on - it's not all one sided, us oldies have to take some responsibility as well and give some of the youngsters a chance.

BTW if we were in your area he would definitely be approaching you and he would put in a good days work, be willing to learn, listen to what he's told and show initiative. He volunteered and works as lifeboat crew - he's going for his week's training at Poole next week and is only 18 (started with the lifeboats as soon as he turned 17) - so they're not all slackers hanging around on street corners.

Kay

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by jamesp

I find the world is full of tool makers. Generally they turn out to be tools.

The problem with the money being so shite is that in hungary you can get a toolie for a month for a weeks pay here. China is even worse. Customers want it all for less and the welfare pays£18k a year for sitting on your arse if you have a family.
Its not skilled pay rates being low thats the problem, its unskilled rates are too high.Face it if i want someone to brush the floor, I have to pay £5.80 an hour. Even if they are so thick I have to shove the brush up their arse and tell them to follow the walls. I resent only being able to pay skilled guys twice that. The customer however wants to pay me less, even the MOD buys from China now.

As for CNC and throw away carbide, things move on. When my Father served his time it was all Mushet, some HSS new fangled was brazed carbide. the fastest Lathe in the shop did 800rpm. Now he uses indexable carbide on a 2500rpm lathe. he is 71 next month, he worked in DeHavilands and Vauxhall tool rooms.

The last lathe I bought has a 4000rpm spindle, thats a 6" manual machine.
the CNC`s are 6000 and 10000rpm(yes10k). The mills are all 4 and 6K spindles(ie slow, modern would be 15K+).
I was running a H13 tool steel die today, model in solidworks, programmed in cam, dnc to control cutting at 120m min, 0.15mm per tooth 2.5doc(its only a 7.5Kw spindle) finishing at around 150m min. finishing will be 10~15 minutes with a flapper in the die grinder. Total time around 12 hours,billet on floor to finished job on floor, 25 years ago you would have spent half of that polishing and about a week watching a HSS tool, if you had a hydratel. I was running two cnc`s and a manual mill.
FAPT was a museum piece over ten years ago.
I just want somebody who can do a fraction of what I do, not harp on about how good they recall they were. If I`m paying shite, the only people topping me are working shifts locally. I have seen ads running locally offering more money, but basic weeks of 42 and 50 hours!Hourly rates were lower than mine. I would expect overtime to put 25% on my rates for the year if they want it.

You have been in the rip off game to long Mark, deal with Jo public and houses, if its a big bill its a serious job. Charge a lot and they think they are getting a class service. Wonder how long you would last running a business on 5% margins.
Try and work out how a £110,000 CNC makes money at under £15/hour charge out. Mine does.

Every Engineering business I know of is absolutely rammed out with work. They all have the same problem, absolutely no available skilled labour. Believe me, skilled is getting very losely applied these days, there still is`nt any.

I feel you pain but your typical UK management living in the past. You cant expect laborious to live in cardboard boxes and skilled men to live in tower blocks so the bosses can get rich. The Victorian era is over. Same problem in Japan now cost of living has caught up with even the lowest paid.

In China the cost of living is incredible. You can do a weeks shopping for £5, tax is virtually non existent for the work force and quality of life expectations are very low. Working conditions are shocking, health and safety is non existent and discipline is high as no one can afford to loose their job in a country with zero social services.

A typical three bedroom apartment (they don't like houses) can be purchased for £5,000. A luxury 4 bed apartment on the beech with roof top gardens and a pond (like my sister in law just purchased) is £20,000. £500 a month is a good income. On a par with £2500 a month take home in the UK. My sister in law sells cosmetics internationally and makes about £800 a month. Shes comparatively upper middle class in terms of income.

Hardly any one takes out a mortgage, families club together to lend money. They hardly ever go on holiday and they work like dogs.

The UK manufacturing industry cant compete with it, and China is up and coming so you wait to see what happens when Vietnam kicks in and undercuts China. Move your business to Hungry its a global economy now stop thinking we can go back to the bad old days. We skilled engenears have mooved on and so should the management.

The only money in engineering now is hyper specialist and development work and repairs. If you want to make good money in new tooling and components, moove aborad.

Don't comment on how good or bad you think we were. I worked for Phillips Toolroom on the Imperial Way Croydon and was time served at Mullards in Mitcham (part of the Phillips group). Widely regarded as the best tool room in the UK. I can assure you Paul Silman was a veritable artist with metal. I only did ten years at it so I never got close to being as good as him but i wasn't bad.

The trouble with highly skilled men is they tend to be fairly intelligent. Why would an intelligent person turn down 50K a year as a plumber or an electrician to be a toolmaker for 25K a year?

Any one who thinks construction/plumbing/electrical work is a rip off can just pop down to B&Q's and do it them selves.

I run a timber and damp company so we fall into the band of rip off builders and for your information our on target profit is 15% for job costing is and we generally hit around 12%.

My 2006 accounts are on line if you wish to confirm this

In order to do this our men are charged at £250 a day per man + materials parking and logistics costs. which I am often told is a diabolical rip off. However our profit is avg £30 a day per man. So you tell me if we are ripping people off?

By comparison my local Mazda garage charges £85 an hour to service my car so £680 a day labor.

ATB

Mark

[Woz]

OK all this is very nice but still hasn't found me a bloke. Even though I say so myself, we're an excellent employer and can honestly say that if you work for us, it's a job for life if you want it. Most of the workforce has been here for 10+ years, some for nearly 40 years.

So come on- someone must be able to work a lathe out there? All manual, no CNC, very (hyper!) specialist engineering, cutting edge in our field (handling abrasive powders).

[stevechesh]

Free nitrox ?

[Woz]

Free welding O2!

[Gram43]

OK pardon the pun I made at the start of the thread. When I left school I went straight into an apprecticeship in the then employee abundant British Steel and worked there until the early 80's. It seemed that everyone then more or less did what their fathers had done. My father was a fitter and turner, but I went into the plater/welder side.

I guess you rarely get anyone offering apprenticeships these days as most kids either don't want work, or they don't want to get their hands dirty, or they want to be internet whizzkids and earn a mint quickly.

My idea would be to get someone in their "more mature years" who is still capable of offering you good work for good pay, then you can forget about the youngsters.

We've tried employing younger people without success, so I guess I speak from personal experience, and not that I'm an "old git" with attitude.

All the best.......Graham

[Woz]

I guess you rarely get anyone offering apprenticeships these days as most kids either don't want work, or they don't want to get their hands dirty, or they want to be internet whizzkids and earn a mint quickly.

My idea would be to get someone in their "more mature years" who is still capable of offering you good work for good pay, then you can forget about the youngsters.

Yep already done that. The last 2 employees we had were 54 and 56. Bloody good turners. We also have an apprentice but with mixed results- some very good, others don't want to work and spend the day texting their mates. Had to sit the current one down and explain to him that unless he pulled his thumb out of his arse he was always going to be on shit pay as he needs to be productive- we're going through (hopefully) a huge period of expansion (nearly quadrupling turnover) so can't afford anyone dicking about.

[Tonto]

Hi Woz,
Talking to Dinner Lady about this and she said that she hands a "how to get work" magazine to the guys looking for work, it has a couple of pages at the back of job search engines, you could post an advert on them? a couple that stand out are IT jobs, Telecom jobs and Engineering jobs in London & the UK - PlanetRecruit and UK Jobs & Careers at Monster.co.uk, I'd personally go for an agency as you could take the person on temporarily and if they seem to be working out offer a permanent position, Hays is a global leader in specialist recruitment have done good for me but I'm not sure they are engineering, I'm sure a quick google will turn up agency that is useful.
HTH
Mart

[Buoyant Babe]

Originally Posted by Woz

OK all this is very nice but still hasn't found me a bloke.

I'd rephrase that if I were you.

[Steve Summers]

Originally Posted by Buoyant Babe

I'd rephrase that if I were you.

He knew what he meant

Safe diving,
Steve