The French and Iraq

[Mr T.]

[Lou]: We haven't given a stuff for the Iraqi or Kurds for the past twelve years despite knowing all we know now, then.

[Bren]: Not strictlty true that Lou; we've had Royal Marines on the ground both peace-keeping/defending and administering humanitarian aid pretty much constantly since the last Gulf work out. That, coupled with RAF on station over the Northern 'No Fly Zone' to ensure what remains of the Iraqi airforce can't do what it used to do as target practise - kill the Kurds at will. Oh, we also subsidise their Mission in London so that they can have a safe environment from which make their aspirations known and have a political voice.

[Lou]: What I object most strongly to is Blair just following Bush-baby into war for no *new* reasons, and lying to us about why we are doing it!

[Bren]: Granted, getting Downing Street to publish the 11 year old doctorate thesis and billing it as 'new intel' was not the brightest move. I can hear some poor bugger minion being taken roughly from behind (without Lube) as we speak as a result.

[Lou]: Whether we think we are right or not we cannot just march into other countries that have NOT taken offensive action against another state.  

[Bren]: And this would be your retort had you been alive and cognisant of your surroundings in Poland in 1939 and made aware of what happened in the the Warsaw Ghetto, would it?

I think we can agree that Saddam is minded to make available camps for the training of those that might seek to spread their brand of extremism to the UK, US, Bali, etc. He is also more than capable of making available the raw materials needed for whatever devices these people might seek to plant. I'd prefer it if my children didn't have to grow up in a world wherer these menances still exist. We're lucky (it is a privilage) that we have the ability to discuss these issues as we see fit - the Iraqi people, the Saudis, Afghanistanis, Iranians, North Koreans etc. ad nauseum do not. Another reason why Budgy's 'what we're doing is a crime' BS struck me as mere simplistic idealism.

And your point about adhering to UN mandates and observing due process in same. If I could be for one minute convinced that the French, the Germans and the Russians were voting in anything like a truly altruistic manner (and not simply, as is the case, to suit their own ends), then yes, I might be minded to take the option of a 2nd UN mandate seriously. But I can't, for the reasons I've cited above.

[Gavin Yates]

Iraq is a threat to world peace, discuss ...

1. The US should know they've probably kept the receipts from the last lot of hardware they sold the Iraqis.

2. If we're in the business of disarming vile dictators who practice state sponsored murder and cause vast ecological destruction then look no further than George W. George Walker Bush has no real mandate and is only President cos Fox News called the election prematurely - incidently George W's cousin was the Fox News Editor on Election Night ... Whilst Gov of Texas  - George W signed the warrant of execution of a 14-year-old child with severe mental disabilities who had been convicted of murder ... His failure to ratify the Kyoto Agreement will cost the world in the long term thanks to the virtually untaxed petrol status in the US and the almost complete lack of regulation to business in regard to environmental controls.(BTW Clinton was equally guilty)

3. Why only invade Iraq, what about Turkey? No the US wants to provide Turkey with missiles - look at Turkey's record with the Kurds. While we're at it, China, Pakistan, Chile, Saudi Arabia - all have had corrupt regimes. No US invasion tho'

4. Saddam is a vile dictator who has persecuted his own people for the last 20 years. He is an international criminal and should be treated as such. However I do not see how bombing Iraq into the stone-age will assist in providing a better life for innocent Iraqis or even a sense of balance to the region.

It's very easy to postulate over war but very difficult to carry it out. Having been to Bosnia and Rwanda and seen the suffering first hand I would hope that there can be a way out of this with out having to see another mound of children's bodies.

I agree with Bren that the French and Russians are a busted flush when it comes to moral highgrounds but the US and the UK playing hurry up football with no viable "public domain" evidence, including the infamous 12-year-old Phd thesis means I cannot make an informed decision on the varacity of the US and UK claims.

In short, George and Tony - if you want world support and general support in your own backyards - produce the evidence or you'll be embarking on the most serious folly for generations.

[Hobby]

Matt,Lou,without getting into a ruck with this,remember last time,the videos and testimonials of the Kurds after being gassed are evidence enough of his weapons of mass destruction,and his use of such.Remember too that he was developing them then and using Kurdish villages as tests.I personally think that it's not so much the fact that some people have these weapons...but who has them and what are they doing/prepared to do with them.The question of proof is subject to interpretation,however if you read Prada or news from other countries,esp in the Arab world(via the net,translated),no one other than the Germans(in public) appear to be under doubt that he has and is developing them.And that he poses a real threat,which is possibly increasing as he develops his forces.Interestingly a guy named Hitler did this after the 1st WW.We sat back then for years with the same comfortable justifications,almost to a tee.
I appreciate that it's a case of why now,when it suits the US?Perhaps.Last time we left until millions had been lost and countries invaded etc.But I'm forgetting,Iraq's done that anyway.
Perhaps the US has had it's ankle bit(no disrespect)in a sense and is determined to start "taking the bull by the horns".That is something that we in the UK are always loathe to do in all respects.Eg."Lets not regulate or control anything potentially harmfull,not until it's killed or maimed so many that we have to, belatedly, do something about it"I'm not talking about Hussein but Rec Diving,Asbestos,Mobile phones in cars,the rise of Nazis in the 30's,genocide in the former Yugoslavia etc,etc.
Procrastination is the theif of time.Why now?Perhaps because we were to afraid,weak,compromised,whatever to do it before,when we should have?
North Korea's been threatening for a long time,to get a good overview one has to read beyond the mainstream news,as with Iraq,"we've" been doing something about it for years(RAF patrols,UN inspections,keeping tabs etc,etc),but with much of the public it goes un-noticed and disregarded as it's not on "the news",it is'nt in our faces and thus as such does'nt concern us really.Does'nt mean it's not been happening.Sadly it's not been enough,which brings us to the current state of affairs.
Remember,this is'nt opposed by the UN as a whole,but by 3 countries(who have their own agendas and are not so much opposing the point of this but the timing..) out of how many,17? All,who are privy to much more info than we may ever be are in agreement that these measures must be taken in the intrests of the world.
And as for people whing about Bush being this and that,he may well be,but he can't do anytjhing without a big obstacle called congress who would oppose him getting rid of the Devil herself if it helped some of them politicaly,come on,look at the realities not the tabloid scaremongering.Bush has as much chance in reality of starting a war via his own agenda as I have as being asked to deliver a talk for DIR!
 It seems that they may have just said "enough's enough",lets do something about this,before it gets really out of hand.
Hobby.

[Sean]

For those of you who have know Idea what you are talking about let me add some light on what this man is like…  And I can assure after spending 6 months in and around Iraq I’ve seen some of his handy work first hand…
This so called man GASSED hundreds of his own people.  To see if his weapons worked and the other reason was ethnic cleansing the very same reason the UN troops were sent to Bosnia and  Africa the difference being this man has nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and he will use them once he has perfected an accurate and effective delivery method.  
He used chemical weapons in the last war and that’s a fact, you will find that out in other 40 years time when the government releases information…
What will people say when London underground is closed and thousands are dead???  Why did we not do something before.. Just think back to September the 11th  did they ever think it could happen in the USA…    

Why are the troops at Heathrow and Why are they in the CVRT’s (Light tanks for the non-military).  What is about the only thing that will stop a suicide bomber in a car full of explosives ramming the entrance to Heathrow answer A TANK with ARMOUR PIERCING ROUNDS… Think about it

And where does all this stuff come from well most of it the middle east Iraq..
Yes we are and so are the USA are a nuclear power but we don’t have a insane dictator at the helm… (some may disagree)  
I agree that we should only go in once the UN sanctions it and not before..  You ask any Iraqi living or applying for asylum within the UK they will tell you first hand that this man must go… If you ever get to see the death and destruction that this man leaves in his wake first hand, and I pray that you don’t,  you will change your mind…              

Lou you mention North Korea the West won’t need to get involved because as soon as they become a threat China and South Korea will sort that one out (of course with backing from the west)

Just my point of view I await the slating

Sean
 

[Seadart Mark]

Saddam is a wrong 'un. No mistake, and should be delt with.

But do object to US/UK administration treating me/you like idiots and claiming that they are just acting against the threat of weapons of mass destruction.

If they just came out and said...'Look, he's got a shed load of oil and we want it' might just have a little more respect for them.

and just to keep the ball rolling........

One of the worlds largest defense contractors is The Carlyle Group.

and who should be a director of this group, yep Mr Bush Snr. and just to make it real interesting one of the major investors in this group is....................................   wait for it................................................ ....




the Bin Laden Family of Saudi Arabia.


Still trust 'em ??

[Dr Stevil]

IMO, the one thing which is different today as opposed to "Desert Storm" is Sept 11th, it has changed how we view the world.

Perhaps we should have sorted him out then, but it didn't happen.  Perhaps Iraq is the new starting point in our New World Order, I don't know.

However, I do know what happens when Leaders railroad their countries into unpopular conflicts (we're back to the sixties again).  Georgie boy may weather the storm over in "cloud-cuckoo land" but I reckon it'll be "Bye-Bye Blair" over here because "Our Tony" (as they call him around here; his constituency is around the Durham area) seems to think we Brits are as naive and gullible as the majority of Yanks.

I have sympathised with the Kurdish position from te beginning and initially I was quite pro-conflict. UNTIL I read Georgies political and personal pedigree (Thank you Michael Moore), now I find I need a little more convincing about starting a war with him at the helm.

For some reason, can't think why, I just don't trust politicians...

Incidentally, I'm certainly not a christian but I saw this extract recently, seemed appropriate to the thread

Thessalonians 5:3
While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

[budgy]

We did not elect our government to police the world nor is our defence force a suitable tool for police work.
Our elected government has no mandate from the population or jurisdiction to make threats of war against a country that is not threatening us, nor have they a mandate to replace the government of any other nation.
Troops will lose their lives in military action and governments have an obligation not to risk them other than in defence of the nation.
Support of hypocrisy: Labour M.P. little kid-commie, once achieved prominence demonstrating support for a bomb that took away the face of young girl. Is now calling for us to support a war on terrorism. Prominent ex union new labour fat cat gravy train minister expects fireman to take a kick in the crutch in place of a pay rise and smile.    
           

(Edited by budgy at 6:25 pm on Feb. 11, 2003)

[Jay]

Ok people - this is a topical issue so I have let it run thus far but it is in danger of snowballing into something unsavoury. We are all entitled to opinions and all opinions are valid but YD is not the place to discuss them in this case. We have a varied membership base and receive hits from over 35 countries worldwide (countries in the Middle East included) so please keep political treaties off the forum (unless they are diving related!).

Regards

Jay

[Phil Ennis]

Shame Jay cos I just learnt more in 5 mins than in last 5 months from the news.
Enjoy your trip and remember its 3 hard days mate.

[Jay]

Phil - I didn't mean to stiffle debate but it was the tone of certain posts that put me off. A debate if fair enough providing people respect others opinions.