The French and Iraq

[John Holmes]

:redbite:
Congo Brazeville early 60's
Cuba 62
Czechoslovakia 68
Cyprus 74
Afghanistan 79
Poland 1981 -  Troops in Polish uniform, only able to speak Russian or German greeting the East German Hoeneker, after the Poles had the balls to tell the Russians to piss off

Sudan/Eritrea/Ethiopia/Angola/Mozambique 1980's
Rwanda, Somalia,Bosnia, Kosovo Sierra Leone 1990's

Where in the name of God where the f*****g United Nations when this little lot was going on??!!

When they did get their arses into Serbia/Bosnia (shamed by much American pressure after the "european defence union" failed miserably because they couldn't agree on a single point of order) what did they do?? Put a Dutch general with a yellow streak down his front in command of a well armed garrison to protect the Muslim enclave of Srebrenica. What did this stout ambassador of the UN do?? At the first sign of trouble he ordered the garrison to lay down their weapons and watch as the Serbs marched 7000 men women and children to their deaths in the gun pits!! Oh and don't take my word for this!! Ask the Dutch government who resigned en masse in disgrace last year because of this.

Europeans to the rescue?? My God you must be dreaming, the French have capitulated and collaborated with the Germans twice, and had to be saved by, among others, the UK and yes the "bad old USofA" They then spat their dummies out over Algeria and later left Nato, because, quite simply De Gaulle wasn't allowed to run it.

Who built Ghaddafis chemical warfare plants - our German friends - made lots of DMarks/Libyan Pounds,Dollars..whatever out of that ... until the US razed it to the ground

Looking to the Belgians to do anything to save the world.... with the exception of their marine corps, themselves and the Dutch are fondly remembered by the British troops who served with them in Nato as pill heads who couln't go out in the open without their hairnets to keep their hair under their helmets in case it got wet(or in their eyes)!


Talking earlier of ambassadors... who was it last November who ORDERED all his ambassadors around the world to return their families to Baghdad as insurance against defections

Who has spent millions funding the families of suicide bombers over the last three years

Who has forbidden Iraqi scientists to speak to the UN inspectors

As a staunch European I get really annoyed when people can't even recall the history of Europe in the last 100 years. Europe will never act in total unison when confronted with difficult situations (never mind military action)That doesn't mean that all /everything Europe is bad - it isn't - its just that I know that when it comes to facing up to hard realities it just isn't going to happen.

Why have we done nothing to stop Saddam over the last twelve years? somebody asks. Well if the truth is known we have been keeping him away from settling scores with his own people in the southern marshes (Sunnis or Shiites aren't they?) But the main question to be asked is what have the UN done in the last twelve years? 12 0r 13 more resolutions - each passed by the security council and each in turn derided and discarded by the man who knows no opposition in his inner circles and rules with a fist of iron. Ask any Iraqi on a one to one basis, out of sight and out of earshot of anybody else (if you could get that close to an ordinary Iraqi!!)and they will tell you - thousands disappear each year, not because they riot, demonstrate, plot or carry out any anti government activity - its simply that they hold views that differ from Hussains. But this same Security Council now wants to pass yet another resolution!!

As for the North Koreans - get real, here is a tyrant who sees himself as Mao reincarnated. The North Korean people are starving by the million because he slavishly follows discredited communist Chinese agricultural policies from the sixties, policies even the Chinese laugh at now. What will be the outcome - I don't know but for Christ sakes dont ask the French, Germans or Belgians to sort it out!

Oh and incidentally, it may be topical (and yes I DO like D2TV) to take the piss out of George Bush, but if he was the idiot hes made out to be, then we would have woken to a much different world on 12 September 2001. No, instead of that hes been shrewd enough to tell the UN to either put up or shut up - nothing wrong with that, I know lots of serving soldiers who would cringe at being ordered to wear a blue UN helmet - its come to be a symbol of shame.

Now, let me finish on this note - I've had my say and you're entitled to yours - people in this country have died to ensure your right (sorry, privilege - a right has to be earned) to speak freely on any subject you like. Iraqis dont enjoy that privilege, and neither,if Schroedder had his way with his pathetic injunctions about his hair colouring, would the British press!! Sort of puts him and his like into perspective hey??!!

[Seadart Bob]

Agree with that one John.

Right this is the way I see it Jay.
Get Saddam to admit he intends to invade Poland and everybody is our friend start the war tomorrow and will be sorted by the weekend.
All Middle Eastern dive holidays can be booked with no worries.
That’s dive related in’ it.
Bob

[Mr T.]

Err....sorry, John.....I'm just looking for that box of cigars!

Well said that man.

Why is there so much diffence between the US and Europe? Because the US can speak, nominally at least, with one voice. Europe, on the other hand, is so divided on its own 'domestic' policy (languages, currency, national characteristics and interests etc.) that trying to get them all to agree on any given point can be (as is proving to be the case here - albeit with masked intent) a hopeless task. That, and they are so used to having their countries' criss-crossed by invading armies that they've developed a national 'shrugged-shoulders' attitude. Not good enough, I'm afraid.

The US press media managed to keep coverage of the Holocaust down to a 2 inch article on page 17 during WW2; but when they entered the war that changed. I could care less about oil, my conscience tells me that I can not agree with letting Saddam off the hook. And allowing him 'exile' is a further insult that compacts an already outrageous situation.

We sent SAS hit squads into the Balkans (still there actually) to round up those deemd to have committed War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity. Saddam too fits that bill. Strangley enough, in all the sectors the French covered, the guys that were being sought always managed to be 10 steps ahead of the posse - as it later came out that elements of the French High Command were sending signals to them so they wouldn't get caught. How can we trust the French in the current script with such recent cowardice and double-dealing still fresh on the table?

And to anyone saying that we have to take the same approach with Chile, North Korea, Zimbabwe et al, all I'll say is that day aint over yet.

I'd prefer discourse in democracy to reign (albeit sometimes chaotic and ill-informed) rather than some countries (the West) enjoy it exclusively whilst other 'less happy breeds' go to #### in a hand-cart or worse.

To those that might blanche at the prospect of war, all I can say is thank God there are those willing to get in amongst it and make a difference for the common-good; the common-good including reducing the number of countries and despots that might actively seek to remove both mine and their own people's freedom and ability to disagree; those despots that might seek to provide succour, shelter, encouragement and the raw materials to allow the extremists to spread their twisted sense of how they have corrupted the tenets of a once noble religion (Islam). They seek to hurt me and others for no good or rationale reason and I'm not happy with that. What other justification do I need?

Next question?

[MATTBIN]

Bottom line Jay and all is I think we all agree he should go, for his crimes against his own people alone but its just the manner in which its done that stinks.
So what we gonna chat about during the Anglesey nosh break?

Matt

(Edited by MATTBIN at 8:47 am on Feb. 12, 2003)

[Lou]

So, given all the above, why is it sooooo hard for Bush'n'Blair to show us the proof?

That is all anyone wants.  Give us the justification.  If a bunch of guys on a diving website can come up with more reasons than our leader managed on an hour of primetime tv, then something is very wrong.

[Dominic]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]So, given all the above, why is it sooooo hard for Bush'n'Blair to show us the proof?

That is all anyone wants.  Give us the justification.  If a bunch of guys on a diving website can come up with more reasons than our leader managed on an hour of primetime tv, then something is very wrong.

<span =''>

New Labour? Just tell you the truth?
HA! HA!

[John N]

Anyone see the Rory Bremner Iraq special. &nbsp;V amusing and full of interesting facts. &nbsp;Turns out a lot of it is our fault in the way we carved up Mesopotamia. &nbsp;The reason the Kurds, Marsh Arabs and ruling Iraqis have issues is that they aren't a natural country. &nbsp;C.F. Yugoslavia and the same problems.
We also really fancied using chemical weapons on the 'unruly' locals in Mesopotamia, but unfortunately didn't have the technology - Mr Churchill signed the order though.

Lots of the worlds problems stem from the way the British and to a lesser extent the Americans carved up the world for their own benefit. &nbsp;India and Pakistan, Korea, Lots of the Middle East and particularly Israel/Palestine.

America isn't going to do anything about North Korea militarily because they have Nukes.

Ditto India/Pakistan (Kashmir). &nbsp;Besides Pakistan's oppressive, non-democratic government has been helping out with Afghanistan. &nbsp;Realpolitik.

Saudi Arabia is a particularly oppressive state but strategically important and therefore no problem for the Americans.

Turkey's record ain't much better but they are a strategic member of NATO - game of Risk anyone?

We set up the artificial state - Israel after the second world war, kicking out lots of the 'unruly locals' in the process. &nbsp;Fifty years on its still an intractable problem, and since Israel has many friends in the American government, they will not deal with that either.

China's human rights record is a nightmare - the consensus though seems to be contructive engagement rather than war, perhaps because they have quite a lot of guns.

SO where is all this rambling going then?

I guess that since we caused a lot of the problems, the British have a duty to try and sort it out. &nbsp;For me, the scary thing would be another country getting nukes. &nbsp;If a war stops that then count me in.
America is the new empire, becoming fat (literally) and arrogant from their position of unassailable power. &nbsp;A single dominant world power is a potential problem, but does anyone want to go back to the cold war of the early eighties with enough live and targeted nuclear weapons to reduce the entire world to cinders 50 times over?
America spends a massive amount on defence (offense) and until Europe spends an equivalent amount, we will be seriously disadvantages when we want a seat at the table.
All countries (governments) will act in the manner they feel is in their best interests. &nbsp;This includes ignoring things that they dislike if it is in their strategic interests to do so.
The Americans are doing that now, but at least their ideals align approximately with ours.

Is war a good thing - No. &nbsp;Is it necessary - possibly. &nbsp;Is it going to happen - Yes.

[budgy]

Thinking about nukes, I recently read a report the new Republic of South Africa has been sending some ship loads of armaments to Jordan. By S.A. standards its been handled with great secrecy the weapons have been transported and loaded at night. People think it is a blatant sactions busting sale to Iraq and the Jordan end users certificate is fooling nobody, you probably won't of read about it because information the newspapers don't print is also carefully controlled and at present the SA government is one that the powers that be, apparantly wish to whitewash, so the news stories of the on going murder of some thousand ethnic European farmers since Africanisation and the blatant anti ethnic European legislation and policies doesn't get published. Considering the penchant for corruption is so great amongst African governments one can only expect it is just a matter of time that some of nukes S.A. had before Mandela get sold. Who knows maybe they were sold long ago.        
P.S. Maybe we should replace the Euro parliament with a British Governer general


(Edited by budgy at 10:26 pm on Feb. 14, 2003)

[John Holmes]

Hi Budgy
Got to hand it to the South Africans for being even handed and playing the right cards at the right time - I remember 1973 - Thousands of tonnes of bicycle spares despatched to Ashdod in Israel - there arent enough people in Israel to use that amount over 10 years!!. But, the British government had just publicly refused to supply Israel with tank spares which were part of a long standing arms contract.
In 1982, the old RN base at Simonstown was used to provide info on Argentinian naval movements to the British, albeit via the Yanks who I think were occupying the base at the time.

Given the abuse thrown at Israel and USA at separate conferences in South Africa over the last year or so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the South African government wasn't busy stirring things up in the Iraq situation.

Shame about Africa at the moment. I didn't have much time for &quot;hero&quot; Mandela, he murdered many Africans in his days as a &quot;freedom fighter&quot; and richly deserved his life sentence. However, putting aside personal feelings, I did think he had got South Africa back on the road to recovery etc..etc.. But that seems to be going by the board over the last few years. They were implicated several times in unrest in Nigeria (their economic competitor/enemy) and seem to be backing Mugabe to the hilt in Zimbabwe, another tragedy in a country that at one time could have provided food for a good part of Africa but now has hundreds of farms taken over, destroyed and burnt to the ground (and in many cases the farmers murdered, after having been asked to stay and help with economic recovery from the late 1970's) while half the population starves.
I do hope Tony Blair manages to turn his attention to this little problem was Saddam Hussain is sorted out, or perhaps as you say Budgy the word has gone out to the Press barons (queuing up to receive their honours from Tony) that what goes on in Africa is to be kept as low key as possible??!!
Cheers
John &nbsp;

[budgy]

:offtopic:
Hi John, South Africa developed a very good military manufacuring infrastructure, not in the same league as British Aerospace, but Armscor and Atlas aircraft, once manufactured some good military hardware. &nbsp;Many overseas designs manufactured under license. &nbsp;The Mirage fighter, F.N. small arms, armoured cars, there were some air craft rocket missiles, (I believe a join developement with Israel) and a stalin organ type artillery rocket launcher, the heavy artillery G5 and self propelled version the G6 cannon, their attack helicopter, had a quite advanced helmet sighting system were the weapon system would align automatically with the pilots line of sight. &nbsp;I don't suppose they are manufacturing much any more, because millions of qualified ethnic Europeans voted with their feet. Strange but there are far more ex South Africans &nbsp;living outside Africa than there were anti apartheide refugee's. &nbsp;These people are welcome because of skills and are classed as immigrants and no western government has officialy acknowledged they are refugee's. &nbsp;Log on http://www.censorbugbear.com if you want to know more. &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;