Low emission zone

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

What are you paying for an LPG conversion over there? Here, it's about $3000 but the Federal Govt gives a rebate of $2000, so in most cases, the conversion pays for itself in under a year.

Depending on what you get done and what kind of car, £900-2000 for a conversion. Unless things have changed since I last bought an LPG car, there was a government subsidy scheme BUT there was an age limit on the car, only certain models qualified and there was a quota for each vehicle. For the vehicle I needed for work, when I looked at it I needed to spend around £15-20k on something that qualified but the quotas were already used anyway. It just wasn't practical. I'm not sure what the road tax implications are on the emission based bands but on older cars there was no road tax reduction for LPG use either.

And LPG isn't as rosy as those that promote it want you to think. A lot of engines, especially Japanese, are unsuitable for running on LPG. They use alloys with less heat tolerance in the cylinder heads. When you run on gas the valves get far hotter than they do on petrol and eventually they burn through the seats... cue new engine. Some companies will fit hardened valve seats and/or lube systems (at a price) but whether or not these are effective is questionable. The LPG convertors will not mention valve recession and will happily do a conversion on an unsuitable engine (unless the LPGA have changed their regs) -- every single one I asked about it said it wasn't a problem or that my car was suitable. Also, not all engine manangement systems like LPG, my Jeep Grand Cherokee really didn't like it at all and went into limp home mode if I needed to switch between fuels.

10% of forecourts might have an LPG pump but I wonder how many have either a serviceable LPG pump or a dependable supply. This was the main reason that I went back to diesel, no dependable supplies and it kind of defeats the purpose when you have to go an extra 40miles out of your way to fill your car.

LPG is a great idea but the practicality in this country leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps when more manufacturers do LPG enabled vehicles straight from the factory but I've had three converted LPG cars (done at three different convertors) and after that experience I'd never have another.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

Depending on what you get done and what kind of car, £900-2000 for a conversion. Unless things have changed since I last bought an LPG car, there was a government subsidy scheme BUT there was an age limit on the car, only certain models qualified and there was a quota for each vehicle. For the vehicle I needed for work, when I looked at it I needed to spend around £15-20k on something that qualified but the quotas were already used anyway. It just wasn't practical. I'm not sure what the road tax implications are on the emission based bands but on older cars there was no road tax reduction for LPG use either.

And LPG isn't as rosy as those that promote it want you to think. A lot of engines, especially Japanese, are unsuitable for running on LPG. They use alloys with less heat tolerance in the cylinder heads. When you run on gas the valves get far hotter than they do on petrol and eventually they burn through the seats... cue new engine. Some companies will fit hardened valve seats and/or lube systems (at a price) but whether or not these are effective is questionable. The LPG convertors will not mention valve recession and will happily do a conversion on an unsuitable engine (unless the LPGA have changed their regs) -- every single one I asked about it said it wasn't a problem or that my car was suitable. Also, not all engine manangement systems like LPG, my Jeep Grand Cherokee really didn't like it at all and went into limp home mode if I needed to switch between fuels.

10% of forecourts might have an LPG pump but I wonder how many have either a serviceable LPG pump or a dependable supply. This was the main reason that I went back to diesel, no dependable supplies and it kind of defeats the purpose when you have to go an extra 40miles out of your way to fill your car.

LPG is a great idea but the practicality in this country leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps when more manufacturers do LPG enabled vehicles straight from the factory but I've had three converted LPG cars (done at three different convertors) and after that experience I'd never have another.

Cheers,

Stuart

Fair enough, obviously a different situation here. The car I drive, a Falcon wagon is very popular with the taxi industry and if I was buying new, I could actually have ordered an LPG variant from the factory without a petrol tank - they are pretty well ideal for LPG and most conversions here are big, locally manufactured Fords and GM-Holdens.

LPG outlets are so prevalent here that if you take the Pacific Hwy, Sydney-Brisbane, you pass an LPG pump on average once every 9kms. As I said though, diesel in family type cars has never really been an option until quite recently, not a clean-burn high performance one anyway, the only DERV vehicles I saw here until quite recently were Landcruisers, Landrovers, Patrols etc.

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by Big Kahuna

Over 50 forecourts within greater london retail LPG. 5 in or around the LEZ. Natioanlly over 1250 sites nationwide - more than 10% of the total UK forecourt network.

The current unleaded national average price is 104.4 whilst the national average LPG price is 53.3 - nearly bang on half price - resulting in an effective saving of around 37% per annum on fuel bills for me currently - bear in mind I do approx 40,000 miles per annum - not something to be sniffed at.

Price is linked directly to the cost of oil - which is at an all time high. You need to look at the cost of petrol & diesel when judging price of LPG.

I have an LPG jeep so i know how many forecourts there are and other places that are not forecourts. factor that against how many stations there are that sell petrol/diesel and the percentages don't look good for the capital.

yes of course LPG is linked to oil but explain why when the price of fuel was 93p a litre I could buy lpg at 38.9 .


why are there such big differences in price and don't quote the 'turnover rate ' of the garage, if they didn't turn enough oer they wouldn't sell it as the costs associated would be too high.

the nearest stations to me are 5 miles , I could go to the calor depot in Stratford 2 miles away and give my wages to Dick Turpin but I refuse to do that. how many other people in london have to drive 5 miles for fuel?

i still save a fortune over petrol but its not looking such a good alternative to people thinking about it.

lpg forum has some interesting threads about the recent price rises.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by dry suit diver

.... explain why when the price of fuel was 93p a litre I could buy lpg at 38.9 .

.....

Tax

LPG produces little if any noxious emissions which cause problems for air pollution in cities. The various governments of the world therefore promote it to improve air quality.

In fact LPG is less efficient and therefore produces more CO2 so it is not a "clean" or a "green" fuel in any way shape or form.

LPG is ideal for city buses and taxis and of no real (environmental) benefit for the user who is driving long distances out of town. It is widely used in fork trucks, our old one using (IIRC) a Chrysler (Jeep) engine.

Tax rates vary over time and so therefore will the financial advantages of LPG as automotive fuel.

Chris

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Tax

LPG produces little if any noxious emissions which cause problems for air pollution in cities. The various governments of the world therefore promote it to improve air quality.

In fact LPG is less efficient and therefore produces more CO2 so it is not a "clean" or a "green" fuel in any way shape or form.

LPG is ideal for city buses and taxis and of no real (environmental) benefit for the user who is driving long distances out of town. It is widely used in fork trucks, our old one using (IIRC) a Chrysler (Jeep) engine.

Tax rates vary over time and so therefore will the financial advantages of LPG as automotive fuel.

Chris

I take it this is for those who don't have an LPG vehicle

the chancellor never made any reference to increasing the tax on LPG at more than the rate of duty on petrol. In 12 months the price has not risen at the same rate as petrol which you still need oil for. avereage 39.9 to average 53.9 thats 30% approximately,petrol and deisel hasn't gone up that much has it?

LPG was a waste product (condensate) of the refining process.

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by dry suit diver

I take it this is for those who don't have an LPG vehicle

the chancellor never made any reference to increasing the tax on LPG at more than the rate of duty on petrol. In 12 months the price has not risen at the same rate as petrol which you still need oil for. avereage 39.9 to average 53.9 thats 30% approximately,petrol and deisel hasn't gone up that much has it?

LPG was a waste product (condensate) of the refining process.

My local Morrisons was still selling LPG at 39.9p when I sold my car in July last year, I can't believe the price rise in just a few months. My diesel pickup is now cheaper to run than my LPG jeep. That's without taking into account mileage on petrol because none of the local stations have any LPG.

I noticed at the time a few places starting to make big leaps, my local Shell garage went from 40.9p to 45.9p within a few weeks. It's really not an appealing fuel now. There's another station opened near me selling biodiesel but they can't tell me if my engine is compatible and the dealer won't comment. I'll bet it stops selling it within a few months. The public in general will not choose to make a wholesale fuel shift unless it's made both cheap and easy. Car fuels other than petrol or diesel are currently neither.

There's just been a programme on R4 which said only Luxembourg and Malta use less renewable fuels than the UK in the EU and I can well believe it.

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

Fair enough, obviously a different situation here. The car I drive, a Falcon wagon is very popular with the taxi industry and if I was buying new, I could actually have ordered an LPG variant from the factory without a petrol tank - they are pretty well ideal for LPG.

LPG outlets are so prevalent here that if you take the Pacific Hwy, Sydney-Brisbane, you pass an LPG pump on average once every 9kms. As I said though, diesel in family type cars has never really been an option until quite recently, not a clean-burn high performance one anyway, the only DERV vehicles I saw here until quite recently were Landcruisers, Landrovers, Patrols etc.

When I started getting trouble with my Mitsubishi on LPG it was actually an Australian Mitsubishi forum that pointed me to the problem of running Japanese engines on LPG. They were a mine of information and it becamse quite apparent that LPG acceptance in Australia was miles ahead of the UK, they were years ahead in knowing what could and couldn't be done, they'd already made the mistakes. I can't believe LPG convertors in this country are in such denial about it, it wrecked my engine exactly as the Aussies said it would, almost right down to the exact mileage where it would happen.

[MJH]

http://source.tfl/News/SurfaceNews/5918.aspx

This is on the intranet at work

Think it may answer your question

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

...
There's just been a programme on R4 which said only Luxembourg and Malta use less renewable fuels than the UK in the EU and I can well believe it.

I don't remember seeing much LPG in Luxembourg. Its derv is the cheapest in the EU and the filling stations at the weekends are full of sad little twats with tins filling up. Notably the Germans. The sight of some prick in a €50,000 car filling up a 5 litre tin to save €0.40 while making their boot smell of diesel is pathetic. But hey, fuel prices are all anyone cares about. The (Lux) government loves it as all the trucks pass through the country to fill up (for them it does make sense). It must be the country's biggest export.

Chris

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by chrisch

In fact LPG is less efficient and therefore produces more CO2 so it is not a "clean" or a "green" fuel in any way shape or form.



Chris

That's not quite correct. It certainly isn't quite as CO2 "clean" as some think as you use 30% more litres of LPG over a given distance than for petrol, however, LPG is largely Propane (C3H8), whereas petrol is nominally Octane, actually a blend of molecules but on average C8H18, in other words 2.66x more Carbon, meaning it produces 2.66X more CO2 per litre burned than does LPG.

It's still significantly less LPG per km.