Tibet

[Adrian Kelland]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Genghis Kahn combined china and Tibet in the 1200's. He didn't create China FFS the great wall was started in 200bc which was 1400years before Genhgis. Just becaause the Ming era made it famous by laying bricks dosent meen it didnt exist till the 1300's

Aye, wasn't most of it straw and mud?

[DIVE BUDDHA]

done

[Tunicates]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Its an interesting comment but what do we do about Ireland, Scotland, The Falklands etc? Should we hand them back to their rightfull rulers?

We handed Hong Kong back I suppose but that was just embarrassing seeing as we got it with British Govt backed drug money.

I wonder if the Boxers having attempted to over throw the British drug barons felt any more happy that they were slaughtered by the British Army than the Tibetens do about being slaughtered by the Chinese?

Genghis Kahn combined china and Tibet in the 1200's. He didn't create China FFS the great wall was started in 200bc which was 1400years before Genhgis. Just becaause the Ming era made it famous by laying bricks dosent meen it didnt exist till the 1300's

As I say I am willing to accept argumnet but id like at least a little pointer as to some relevent historical fact on this just so i can stop my wife laughing her head off.

ATB

Mark

Hi Mark.

Ok, great wall. Built by in parts by succesive dynasties over a period of over 1100 years. China's history is one of disunity and seperateness. It is only for modern convenience that we refer to the area historically as 'China' . In reality it was an area with numerous separate rulers any one of which may have been the main ruler with others paying obeisance. Dynasties generally ended in unrest as one area fought for dominance over as many others as they could manage. There was hardly any period when one ruler coulod be said to have ruled over the entire region. Oh. Apart from Gengis. My point is that it was only under Gengis that there was any unity in 'China' and this didnt last long after his demise - 400 years max.

So for China now to pretend that China has always existed as we think of it today is a joke. One the Tibetans dont find funny.

Here's a start: Dynasties in Chinese history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I dont for a minute intend to argue that we should beleive that China will give back Tibet - but we can use the issue to help raise awareness of the treatment of their minorities - and to put pressure on the UK Government to do so as well. And that is why you should sign up.

Mark, I dont expect your wife to stand up for her home country's treatment of the Falung Gong for instance, and why should she have to stand up for China's treatment of the Tibetans? On the other hand - she must at least be aware that there is something slightly amiss going on?

Best regards,

Oliver - TaM

[Lazlo]

Originally Posted by Ding Dang Doo

Not sure if that is fair on the athletes. Many of them have spent the best parts of their lives and made many personal sacrifices to be able to show the world how good they are at their chosen discipline.
They didn't choose the venue, nor would their protest make any difference to the Games (apart from making it less competitive).

This I'm afraid, is one for the governments to sort out.

Pete

I understand what you're saying, and I would have sympathy for any athlete who unilaterally chose not to go.

However, I feel that this isn't really an issue for governments. IF it were, it should be evaluated like all foreign policy decisions - on the basis of national interest - and on that basis the argument that lots of jobs depend on good UK-China relations is a strong one.

The Olympics, unlike every other major international "sporting" event, is extremely heavily politicised. It is always a strong expression of national pride. It is a chance for the host nation to "show off" its culture and achievements to the rest of the world. China has an awful human rights record - even leaving Tibet aside. In this respect, nothing has really changed since Tiananmen Square. Censorship is routine, dissidents are arrested and tortured. I will have a great deal of respect for athletes who choose not to go.

And no, it's not fair on the athletes. Blame the corrupt fools at the IOC for this one.

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Here's a start: Dynasties in Chinese history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the link, hear is a cut and paste:

The History of China as recorded in traditional historical records extends as far back as the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors about 5,000 years ago. Recorded history is supplemented by archaeological records dating back to the 16th century BC.[1] China is one of the world's oldest continuous civilizations. Turtle shells with markings reminiscent of ancient Chinese writing from the Shang Dynasty have been carbon dated to around 1500 BC. Chinese civilization originated with city-states in the Yellow River valley. 221 BC is commonly accepted to be the year in which China became unified under a large kingdom or empire. In that year, Qin Shi Huang first united China. Successive dynasties in Chinese history developed bureaucratic systems that enabled the Emperor of China to control the large territory.


Excellent info on there. I did a search on the History of Tibet as well and got these snippets.

Chinese and "proto-Tibeto-Burman" may have split sometime before 4000 BC, when the Chinese began growing millet in the Yellow River valley while the Tibeto-Burmans remained nomads; Tibet split from Burma circa 500[1][2].

And

First appearance in recorded history
Tibet appeared in an ancient Chinese historical text, where it is referred to as Fa. The first externally confirmed incident in recorded Tibetan history occurred when King Namri Löntsän (Gnam-ri-slon-rtsan) sent an ambassador to China in the early 7th century.[6]

I dont for a minute intend to argue that we should believe that China will give back Tibet - but we can use the issue to help raise awareness of the treatment of their minorities - and to put pressure on the UK Government to do so as well. And that is why you should sign up.

I agree but not to the "Free Tibet" bit

Mark, I dont expect your wife to stand up for her home country's treatment of the Falung Gong for instance, and why should she have to stand up for China's treatment of the Tibetans? On the other hand - she must at least be aware that there is something slightly amiss going on?

Best regards,

Oliver - TaM

My wife escaped China after getting involved in a little something called the Tienanmen Square Uprising. Most of her university friends were arrested and executed she and a few other lucky ones escaped to Hong Kong. She never went back to China until she could do so under the safety of a British Passport. We still attend the June 4th Memorial services and she still crys every time.

She did her first and second degree at the Beijing University on International finance followed by an MBA at Edinburgh University and a Masters in Computer Systems Design at the London University. Where she met me.

She is extremely well educated and detests the Chinese government but still thinks the Independent Tibet thing is a joke.

I have no hard personal opinions but I have to say she seems to have a point.

ATB

Mark

[Tunicates]

Hi Mark, well that gives a little more perspective! The web being what it is I was kind of imagining something a little different.

It sounds like she is in a good position to comment on this then.....can you ask her what she finds so funny about it, from her perspective?
I'd really appreciate it.










and can everyone else keep putting their names on that petition anyway?

Cheers,
TaM

[Mark Chase]

[quote=Tunicates are Mad;884026]Hi Mark, well that gives a little more perspective! The web being what it is I was kind of imagining something a little different.

It sounds like she is in a good position to comment on this then.....can you ask her what she finds so funny about it, from her perspective?
I'd really appreciate it.


Because she sees it as bit like Hong Kong but spread over 1000s of years. Hong Kong has always been part of China but was ruled independently by the UK for 100years. Hong Kong is now classified by the Chinese as a "Special Economic Region" There is still border control getting from mainland China into Hong Kong.

The Hong Kong govt has a level of autonomy not typical of a "normal" region / province of Mainland China.

However should the govt of Hong Kong decide to rise up and claim Independence from China, you can expect the same response from Beijing

Ling sees the cry of Free Tibet as having the validity of a cry of Free Hong Kong

A bit like us and Scotland. And their integration into the UK was yesterday when compaired to Tibet's into China.


Please note both my wife and i would be among the first to sign a "Stop the use of violence by the Police and Army in Tibet.

Perhaps this petition is better than nothing so please dont stop signing it but Ling would be offended if i did due to the strings attached.



ATB


Mark

[wilbo]

I understand the sentiment - but I think this petition will do nothing.

It won't stop China from crushing and oppressing any of its people or its neighbours who question it.

The Olympics will be (and has been) used for propaganda by China - and shame on the Olympic commitee for allowing it to do so. They've had 8 years since the 2008 hosts were picked..

As of this week China has lifted the block on access to the BBC's news web site.. Anything to do with this years Olympics? Are they doing it out of the kindness of their hearts? Is censorship is finally being lifted? Or am I being synical?

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | Readers from China react to BBC access - according to this report - some of the chinese think that the west doesn't report fairly.. or is it that China simply are so good at brainwashing and censoring its people that foreign news is actually foreign propaganda made up to hurt China?

[DanTam1]

Signed

[Garf]

Originally Posted by Tunicates are Mad

No they dont.

The idea (in the mind of someone that is 'Chinese')that Mongolia is China, or that Tibet is China is only the result of long-standing assimilationism that the Chinese have used for eons.
China itself only came into being after Gengis Kahn united it by imposing a burocratic system of governance, and from there on China was limited only by geography. You might as well call it all Mongolia.

The fact that China was asked to help Tibet fight off a Mongolian invasion or that the Chinese have imposed rule on Tibet at various times is in no way a reason for them to claim that Tibet is Chinese or should remain so. You might as well argue that as Britain was taken over by Normans in the past we might as well be governed by France now.

we're not?