Tibet

[Adrian Kelland]

Originally Posted by Tunicates are Mad

You might as well argue that as Britain was taken over by Normans in the past we might as well be governed by France now.

The Normans were of Scandinavian (Viking) descent - Norsemen

Now as I am also likely (well as much as one can be) to be of Viking descent, then it all belongs to me.

BOW DOWN BEFORE YOUR RIGHTFUL KING YOU SCURVY KNAVE!



See, you can't easily involve any historical ownerhip argument past living memory as it has always been changing. Where do you draw the line? We may as use the ever changing now. So we now have Kosovo. For now.

Adrian

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

What I'd like to see is some personal bycotts by the athletes.

I listened to a discussion along these lines on the radio coming home tonight.
Now my second son is an athlete, admittedly a big fish in the small pond that is Tasmania but he is dedicated nonetheless and has perhaps another 8 years of potential competition at high level in him (he's 17 and has been under 18 State champ in various events, 100M, 200M etc on and off since he was 15).

He trains for 2 nights a week at the gymn and 2 nights and Sundays at the track, he competes on Saturday (during the season), leaving him with Friday night off, but he has early bed that night to be good to compete on Saturday.

This has been his schedule since he was 12 and will probably continue, barring injury, for another 8-10 years. He hasn't done this with the thought of making money or have the girls chase him (although it hasn't hurt him ), he's done it as something he feels he has to do, the old "because it's there" cliche. On the way, he's had various injuries, including two hamstring tears, one of which put him on crutches for a fortnight.

Now while I doubt he'll see Olympic stardom, for those that do, the level of personal sacrifice by the athlete, not to mention the demands on his/her immediate family are huge and usually for a decade or two. Why should they give this up? What will the rest of you on here give up on behalf of Tibet, apart from 2 mins of your employers time to register on a petition? Words are cheap fellers.

And the fact is, apart from the superstars of track & field, the "average" elite athlete who, makes it to the Games doesn't make any personal finacial gain out of it - competing and...God forbid, winning is simply the culmination and just reward for years of dedication & sacrifice.

The athletes didn't ask the IOC to give the Games to a heavy handed repressive State like China (although as Jacques Rogge said, it's hard to ignore 1/5th of all humanity), where there was always the risk that this would happen. Nope, the IOC did it, for their own reasons.

Lets put the boot on the other foot if we are all so keen on this - how about we all give up diving for a year to show our solidarity with Tibet? Any takers? No, I thought not.

Anyway, getting back to the radio programme, the suggestion made by one caller was that WE boycott the Games, by not watching them, none of it and then writing to/emailing/phoning the TV company to tell them we weren't watching and watch their advertising revenues fall.

Now that wouldn't be too hard would it?

[wilbo]

The Olympics is about sport - a contest of pure athletics - Gladatorial ~ mano e mano.

Not politics.

Unfortunately it is being used that way.

Whether you give up diving for a year or use a couple of minutes of office time to sign the petition - it won't change a thing.

[Lazlo]

Those with principles will make a stand, those without will not.

Actually it would be even better if an athlete, having won a medal, were to make a public expression of principle. Something along these lines:



If there were such a thing as a diving event in the Olympics, and if I were selected (as if), I would not go. Since diving has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympics it would be entirely pointless.

I shan't be watching the games, but that'll be down to pure boredom. I mean, how many times can you watch people running round in circles - it's worse than F1.

The Olympics has a very great deal to do with politics, and has had for a long time. Maybe it shouldn't, but that's not the reality. Seems to me that this is the fundamental point. If you take the position that the Olympics is NOT about politics then go ahead, fill your boots.

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

If there were such a thing as a diving event in the Olympics, and if I were selected (as if), I would not go. Since diving has nothing whatsoever to do with the Olympics it would be entirely pointless.

You don't know what you'd do. And of course it isn't an Olympic event....it was merely an illustration of the sort of sacrifice some people are expecting others to make. Whilst they do nothing apart from talk and make emty gestures.

Originally Posted by Lazlo

I shan't be watching the games, but that'll be down to pure boredom. I mean, how many times can you watch people running round in circles - it's worse than F1.

Hmm. That's something like what my wife says about diving - all that time & money just so you can go and look at a load of boring old fish.

Originally Posted by Lazlo

The Olympics has a very great deal to do with politics, and has had for a long time. Maybe it shouldn't, but that's not the reality. Seems to me that this is the fundamental point. If you take the position that the Olympics is NOT about politics then go ahead, fill your boots.

No argument there but if people around the world are really that bothered about Tibet, then elect a Govt that will send in the troops to do it. Don't expect other people to give up everything they've worked for in a futile gesture just as a salve for your own troubled consciences, as you sit down to watch your cheap Chinese made TV, wearing your cheap Chinese made jeans, T-shirt and trainers, as you reheat a meal in your cheap Chinese made microwave. (And I'm not meaning you Lazlo).

Perhaps the solution is to have the Games in the same venue each time, say in Greece, then they only have to build one lot of facilities and we don't have these ridiculous corrupt bun-fights every 4 years, to host the Games and then to risk boycotts that come with the latest crisis.

The athletes are the meat in the sandwich and individual boycotts will have zero impact - after all while it's news today, really it's just tomorrows chip wrappers.

[wilbo]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

No argument there but if people around the world are really that bothered about Tibet, then elect a Govt that will send in the troops to do it. Don't expect other people to give up everything they've worked for in a futile gesture just as a salve for your own troubled consciences, as you sit down to watch your cheap Chinese made TV, wearing your cheap Chinese made jeans, T-shirt and trainers, as you reheat a meal in your cheap Chinese made microwave. (And I'm not meaning you Lazlo).

Perhaps the solution is to have the Games in the same venue each time, say in Greece, then they only have to build one lot of facilities and we don't have these ridiculous corrupt bun-fights every 4 years, to host the Games and then to risk boycotts that come with the latest crisis.

The athletes are the meat in the sandwich and individual boycotts will have zero impact - after all while it's news today, really it's just tomorrows chip wrappers.

Nobody would send troops in - as that would in effect be declaring war on China - and even the US are not that stupid.

Richard - you are of course completely correct about the cheap goods. These are available simply because the chinese have huge material resources and pay slave labour rates to employees - so that they can sell them on at a very attractive price and thereby corner the market.

Athletes boycotting - unless done on mass by multiple countries - would have no real effect - and why should they.. as you say - your son gives much of his life in pursuit of the thing he loves.

Todays news might become tomorrows propaganda as well..

[Lazlo]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

You don't know what you'd do

Err... yes I do thanks. It really wouldn't be a hard decision to make for me.

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

Hmm. That's something like what my wife says about diving - all that time & money just so you can go and look at a load of boring old fish.

She might have a point .

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

... but if people around the world are really that bothered about Tibet, then elect a Govt that will send in the troops to do it

Now here we get into far larger issues than a few athletes losing a bit of sponsorship. Why DIDN't the "civilised" world go into Rwanda? Why DID the "civilised" world go into Iraq? Why did Robin Cook get laughed out of town when he suggested that an "ethical dimension" should be introduced into foreign policy decisions? Etcetera, etcetera.

Two words: National Interest. If it were in any country's national interest to boycott the Olympics then I would expect them to do so. Otherwise, not. Which is why I think it is up to the conscienses of individual athletes whether they go or not.

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

Don't expect other people to give up everything they've worked for in a futile gesture just as a salve for your own troubled consciences, as you sit down to watch your cheap Chinese made TV, wearing your cheap Chinese made jeans, T-shirt and trainers, as you reheat a meal in your cheap Chinese made microwave.

Good point. I guess it depends on whether one feels that economic sanctions actually achieve anything (other than making the poor suffer)? I think that China seems to respond better when it's reputation is threatened. Seems to be a face thing.

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

Perhaps the solution is to have the Games in the same venue each time, say in Greece, then they only have to build one lot of facilities and we don't have these ridiculous corrupt bun-fights every 4 years, to host the Games and then to risk boycotts that come with the latest crisis.

Works for me.

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

The athletes are the meat in the sandwich and individual boycotts will have zero impact - after all while it's news today, really it's just tomorrows chip wrappers.

Agree and disagree. Yes, it's obviously not fair on the athletes. No, I really think that the Chinese government will be affected by individual boycotts, in a way that a government boycott would not. Government boycotts can be easily passed off as political posturing by nasty non-communist states, probably the same ones that are in league with those "loyal running dogs of the Dalai Clique" . Individual boycotts, especially from respected athletes not previously known for any obvious political affiliations would be more powerful.

[Step]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Ling sees the cry of Free Tibet as having the validity of a cry of Free Hong Kong

As far as i'm concerend that is a rather Chauvinist attitude to have!
Chauvinism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Exactly why would a cry for an independent Hong Kong be invalid?
What is wrong with self determination?
Only a free referendum of the people of Hong Kong would tell whether or not that is the case.
If the people of any region or area deem independence desirable let them have it! If they prefere to be part of a larger entity and accept the loss of some independence as a price worth while for strength in numbers gained let them negoatiae with all the parties concerend and try to come to an amicable agreement!


And, yes I would not mind you declaring you house and back yard to be an independent state, set up passport control at your front and back gates, as long as you accept you have to go through immigration control every time you leave your house. As far as, i'm concerned, you can also stop paying taxes associated with any economic activity solely taking place within the boundaries of your new state, as long as you will pay tax according to the law of the country where any income is being generated or at what ever rate you can negotiate with the country concerned.

What is your wife's opinion on Tiwan?

[Mark Chase]

Exactly why would a cry for an independent Hong Kong be invalid?
What is wrong with self determination?

Only a free referendum of the people of Hong Kong would tell whether or not that is the case.

If the people of any region or area deem independence desirable let them have it!

Cool,

I demand a free and independent London. (Proportionaly about as relevent as the region of Hong Kong is to the rest of China). The taxis raised by the masive wealth in London have been subsidising the rest of England for too long. We demand the right to reinvest our welth in our reigion and an imediate end to the subsidies we offer to the porer reaigions of the UK

I reckon If I put that reforendum up to the people of Greater London Id win the vote.

What is your wife's opinion on Tiwan?

Taiwan was occupied by japan for 200 years and the Taiwanese fought along side Japan in WW2 where as the Chinese fought along side us.

The Japanese invasion of China in 1937 was brutal. In one day they slaughtered 200,000 Chinese civilians. They used Taiwan as a base for production of arms and munitions and they set up massive concentration camps there where Chinese people were sent to die.

Millions died at the hands of the Japanese

The Japanese lost the war and China took over military control of Taiwan. Japan relinquished control of Taiwan formally in the 1945

In 1949 when the communists overthrew the National Party in China the leaders of the national party ran away to Taiwan where they acquired power and still rule today. The general belief is that they had known what was coming and had prepared their bolt hole. Approximately 2 million of Chinas elite fled to Taiwan

The resulting Govt has been less than virtuous with controversy following them to this day.

In the MacArthur "reds under the beds" era any enemy of Communist China was a friend of the USA. So America supported Taiwan and backed them with their military power. To this day USA support Taiwan as an independent country and prevent any intervention by mainland China.

The ruling govt in Taiwan today claim to be the true rulers of China and call them selves the Peoples Republic of China.

China doesn't want Taiwan. They'd rather blow the bastards to kingdom cum.

Taiwan, on the other hand want China or rather to rule China.

ATB

Mark

[MartyC]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Cool,

I demand a free and independent London. (Proportionaly about as relevent as the region of Hong Kong is to the rest of China). The taxis raised by the masive wealth in London have been subsidising the rest of England for too long. We demand the right to reinvest our welth in our reigion and an imediate end to the subsidies we offer to the porer reaigions of the UK

I reckon If I put that reforendum up to the people of Greater London Id win the vote.

Mark

Mark,
The new Avatar makes you look a little like Boris, careful you may get folks confused