Tibet

[DannyB]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Cool,

I demand a free and independent London. (Proportionaly about as relevent as the region of Hong Kong is to the rest of China). The taxis raised by the masive wealth in London have been subsidising the rest of England for too long. We demand the right to reinvest our welth in our reigion and an imediate end to the subsidies we offer to the porer reaigions of the UK

I reckon If I put that reforendum up to the people of Greater London Id win the vote.

<SNIP>

ATB

Mark

Where do I sign up?

Danny

[Step]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Cool,

I demand a free and independent London. (Proportionaly about as relevent as the region of Hong Kong is to the rest of China). The taxis raised by the masive wealth in London have been subsidising the rest of England for too long. We demand the right to reinvest our welth in our reigion and an imediate end to the subsidies we offer to the porer reaigions of the UK

I reckon If I put that reforendum up to the people of Greater London Id win the vote.

I think as long as we tax this wealth where it is created rather than where it is administered and traded the rest of the country will be doing just fine.
Although I do concede that london will initially be better of/or have a head start because of all the wealth London as the capital has already extracted of the rest of the country and concentrated in the wealthy parts of London.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Taiwan was occupied by japan for 200 years and the Taiwanese fought along side Japan in WW2 where as the Chinese fought along side us.

The Japanese invasion of China in 1937 was brutal. In one day they slaughtered 200,000 Chinese civilians. They used Taiwan as a base for production of arms and munitions and they set up massive concentration camps there where Chinese people were sent to die.

Millions died at the hands of the Japanese

The Japanese lost the war and China took over military control of Taiwan. Japan relinquished control of Taiwan formally in the 1945

In 1949 when the communists overthrew the National Party in China the leaders of the national party ran away to Taiwan where they acquired power and still rule today. The general belief is that they had known what was coming and had prepared their bolt hole. Approximately 2 million of Chinas elite fled to Taiwan

The resulting Govt has been less than virtuous with controversy following them to this day.

In the MacArthur "reds under the beds" era any enemy of Communist China was a friend of the USA. So America supported Taiwan and backed them with their military power. To this day USA support Taiwan as an independent country and prevent any intervention by mainland China.

The ruling govt in Taiwan today claim to be the true rulers of China and call them selves the Peoples Republic of China.

China doesn't want Taiwan. They'd rather blow the bastards to kingdom cum.

Taiwan, on the other hand want China or rather to rule China.

Well, as far as i'm concered all that matters now is that "as far as i remember" there was recently a referendum in Taiwan that seamed to indicate that the majority of taiwanese prefer the status quo (how ever bad this may be) to being reunited with the mainland China as it is now.

I'm aware that by this reasoning Tibet is by now clearly Chinese as the Natives have been out populated.
The problem is really that the chinese instead of preserving the native culture seem to treat it with contempt.
I really dread to think what must have happened to provoke the most pacifist people that have ever walk on this earth the "Tibetan Buddhists" to riot and protest in this manner.
China has simply proved for decades that it is incapalable or unwilling to live up to the duties that come with power i.e. to protecte a culture they have made a minority in their own country.
China has therefor itself relinquished any rights to Tibet which it may or may not have held in the past.

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Step

Well, as far as i'm concered all that matters now is that "as far as i remember" there was recently a referendum in Taiwan that seamed to indicate that the majority of taiwanese prefer the status quo (how ever bad this may be) to being reunited with the mainland China as it is now.

I wouldn't put much faith in anything President Chinese does. The fiasco of his election and the nepotism surrounding the key party officials is infamous.

I'm aware that by this reasoning Tibet is by now clearly Chinese as the Natives have been out populated. The problem is really that the Chinese instead of preserving the native culture seem to treat it with contempt.
I really dread to think what must have happened to provoke the most pacifist people that have ever walk on this earth the "Tibetan Buddhists" to riot and protest in this manner.

The "Native Culture" of Tibet was Serfdom. The Monasteries and rich land owners held the population in servitude tied to the land just like Feudal England.

When the Comunist Chinese decided to intigrate Tibet into its new Comunist politics (not intigrate it into China it already was part of China) The Dali Lama represented the leader of the defeated opposition. He was allowed to stay in place as a figure head but the Chinese govt seized local control and the lands of the monastery and the nobles. The land was handed it back to the people of Tibet. Just like they did in the mainland during the Chinese Cultural revolution.

This act of seizing the land brought about rebellion and formed the basis of the Lhasa uprising.

The Lasha Uprising was carried out by rebels funded and directed by the CIA. The Americans were fighting the Communists in any way they could and Tibet was their Chinese equivalent of Cuba.

The leader of the rebels was indirectly / directly (depending on who you believe) the Dali Lama. The Chinese view the Dali Lama in the same poor light as we view some of the Muslim leaders.

The Chinese threatened to attack the palace of the Dali Lama unless the rebels ceased their attacks on the Chinese authorities. The situation reached a head when missiles were fired at the palace.

The CIA smuggled the Dali Lama to India and set about a hearts and Minds operation promoting the Dali Lama as a Gandhi like figure.

China has simply proved for decades that it is incapable or unwilling to live up to the duties that come with power i.e. to protect a culture they have made a minority in their own country. China has therefor itself relinquished any rights to Tibet which it may or may not have held in the past

You assume China has any interest in this sort of political correctness?
It does not. This is a malady suffered only by Western governments.
It is a communist country and believes any sort of large organized group is a threat. Religion was suppressed in China just like it was in Russia and Tibet.
Organized religion must integrate the teachings of communism into its day to day life and actively express its support for the Communist Govt. If it does not, then the Govt will shut it down.

We of course see this as oppression by the Chinese govt, but the Chinese see it as liberation from the oppression of archaic rule by a sort of religious royal family.

As with many things in life it is totaly dependent on your point of view. The problem with Tibet is in the west we are heavily influenced by the manipulation of the USA and their fight against Chinese Communism in the 50s through the 1980s

I don't for one minuet believe i have all the facts to draw an accurate conclusion. I am just as influenced by the power brokers as the rest, but I have at least got a balancing perspective from the other side of the argument.

It is amusing to note that America has recently made noises concerning its rightfull rule over Tiwan. This could make for a further interesting developmnet.


CNE (China News Europe) is available free on Sky and it gives an amazingly different slant on big news stories. If anything starts up again in Tibet or Taiwan have a look on there for a third view.

CNE is a Chinese station but i believe its based in Covt garden London so not (openly) controlled by Beijing.


ATB

Mark

[Pubbloke]

So all those people that have signed up how about Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Do we give them freedom and Independence. Don't forget that 10/20 years ago we had the same sort of problems over here with Northern Ireland and if you go back 200/300 years Scotland and wales suffered the same as Tibet is now.

I am not saying it is proper or correct to treat people in the same way as China does but they are working from examples set by British empire building that have proved very successful.

I personally belevie we should keep to ourselves and let them sort out there own problems, acceptance brings about reform and change a lot better than violence and resistence ever have.

The current economic reforms and changes in China that are starting in manufacturing and commercial businesses will soon see an opening and change in Chinas political systems to acomodate the wealth and aspirations of the whole country that could not be done through political demonstrations. This will not be easy and will probably follow the reforms and changes that we have seen over the last 10-15 years in Russia/USSR where economics have driven through large political reform for practical reasons and not ideals not always in the best way but it will get there in the end.

[Mark Chase]

IMHO Cuba is the only true Communist country left. Free health care, schools, support in old age etc.

China is so Capitalist it makes England look Socialist. In china there is virtually no free medical very limited educational opportunities and no sate pension system unless you work for the state.

Free enterprise is rampant in China and there are probably more Chinese millionaires in China than in England and the USA put together.

The Communist government only use the "Communism" as a means to justify their own non elected existence. They only put their own in power to protect their power and influence for fear of being rounded up an shot by the people of china (again).

The good news is they have figured out the awful corruption at local level was causing decent in the masses and they have begun to clamp down hard on it which is a good thing.

A typical situation would be trying to visit your local councilor.

1st bribe the security guard to let you in the building

Then bribe the receptionist so they tell you where his office is

Then bribe his secretary to let you see him without sitting in reception for two hours

Then finally bribe the councilor to get what ever it was you were after.

Like a place for your child at the best school.

Then bribe the head Mistress of the school to get your kid in with the best teacher and finally bribe the teacher to look after you kid.

This would be funney if i hadnet actualy witnessed it for my self sorting out a place for my neice

ATB

Mark

[Step]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I wouldn't put much faith in anything President Chinese does. The fiasco of his election and the nepotism surrounding the key party officials is infamous.
Mark

I'm afraid that i have not much faith in any government.
When i had it always ended in disapointment.
Will keep a close eye on holyroad.
Not ideal yet, but it is a start.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

The "Native Culture" of Tibet was Serfdom. The Monasteries and rich land owners held the population in servitude tied to the land just like Feudal England.

When the Comunist Chinese decided to intigrate Tibet into its new Comunist politics (not intigrate it into China it already was part of China) The Dali Lama represented the leader of the defeated opposition. He was allowed to stay in place as a figure head but the Chinese govt seized local control and the lands of the monastery and the nobles. The land was handed it back to the people of Tibet. Just like they did in the mainland during the Chinese Cultural revolution.

This act of seizing the land brought about rebellion and formed the basis of the Lhasa uprising.

The Lasha Uprising was carried out by rebels funded and directed by the CIA. The Americans were fighting the Communists in any way they could and Tibet was their Chinese equivalent of Cuba.

The leader of the rebels was indirectly / directly (depending on who you believe) the Dali Lama. The Chinese view the Dali Lama in the same poor light as we view some of the Muslim leaders.

The Chinese threatened to attack the palace of the Dali Lama unless the rebels ceased their attacks on the Chinese authorities. The situation reached a head when missiles were fired at the palace.

The CIA smuggled the Dali Lama to India and set about a hearts and Minds operation promoting the Dali Lama as a Gandhi like figure.
Mark

I guess i will have to read some original accounts of the first european explorers and perhaps chinese documents from over the ages in order to refute your claims.
For now the picture of fuedalism does not fit togeter very well with my view of tibet as a nomadic society as well as with Buhhdist philosophy and monks and monistaries being sustained by what people voluntarily contribute.

How do you explain the large scale revolt at present if the only people hard done by by the chinese were a handfull of fuedal land owners several decades ago while the rest of the populus was glad to be freed?

And if the people of tibet were indeed freed from feudalist oppresion, what do you think the chances are of them accepting the return of this oppresion once the chinese are gone?

Surely if the goal of the chinese was to free the tibetans from fuedalism then they have acived it and can let them now shape thier own destiny.

The Dalai Lama was persuaded by those close to him to flee on the account that he could ba a better example to his people if abroad but alive than dead in tibet. He did not want to abandon his people.
It was his close supporters that smuggled him out.
Did the CIA helped him? Maybe. They certainly supplied weapons to those that went against the Dali Lamas whishes and started a small violent insurgency.

I think that far from being promoted and their bing propaganda about this in the west, the issue of tibet has been swept under the carpet for decades.
this is only possible becuase the people of tibet are Buddhists and as such commited to pacificm. If they were not then tibet would be another palestine.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

You assume China has any interest in this sort of political correctness?
It does not. This is a malady suffered only by Western governments.

Political correctness? Malady?
I take it you considder it OK for for people to have thier human reights violated, and for an unacountable elite to force thier will and way of live upon people?

I agree the chinese goverment don't give a toss.
I admire the people of tibet for thier pacifism while at the same time I think they are too peacefull for thier own "good".
The only way that Tibet could get independence will be if they can make thier province more trubble for the chinese than thier natural resources are worth.
So i guess tibetan culture (at least in Tibet) is dead either way. They get assimilated by the chinese or they win thier independance by violence and in the process will then have distroyed thier own culture.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

It is a communist country and believes any sort of large organized group is a threat. Religion was suppressed in China just like it was in Russia and Tibet.
Organized religion must integrate the teachings of communism into its day to day life and actively express its support for the Communist Govt. If it does not, then the Govt will shut it down.

Sorry but that is an insult to communists!
There is a market Economy,
People can own land or at least means of production.
There is no social security, state pension, very limited if any free health care.
So what exactly is communist about China?
One party system, severly restricted freedom of expression and internment of people for political reasons, .
Sounds like any other fashist regime to me!

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

CNE (China News Europe) is available free on Sky and it gives an amazingly different slant on big news stories. If anything starts up again in Tibet or Taiwan have a look on there for a third view.
CNE is a Chinese station but i believe its based in Covt garden London so not (openly) controlled by Beijing.

Thanks for that. Very interesting. I need to see if I can get it via the net.

I don't have a telly. It's a far more potent opium for the people that the religious smack. and i'm far too suceptible

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Step

For now the picture of fuedalism does not fit togeter very well with my view of tibet as a nomadic society as well as with Buhhdist philosophy and monks and monistaries being sustained by what people voluntarily contribute.

How do you explain the large scale revolt at present if the only people hard done by by the chinese were a handfull of fuedal land owners several decades ago while the rest of the populus was glad to be freed?

Hears a snipit of some of the good stuff the Chinese did. They also did a shed load of bad stuff and killed many people and no one is denying this but the fact of the matter was they brought down the serfdom system.

The Chinese government at first attempted to reform Tibet's social or religious system in Ü-Tsang. Eastern Kham and Amdo were incorporated in the provinces of Sichuan and Qinghai respectively. Western Kham was put under the Chamdo Military Committee. In these areas, land reform was implemented. This involved communist agitators designating "landlords" — sometimes arbitrarily chosen — for public humiliation in "struggle sessions." In conjunction of land reform, Chinese government abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor.

The Chinese built highways that reached Lhasa, and which then extended the Indian, Nepalese and Pakistani borders. The traditional Tibetan aristocracy and government remained in place and were subsidized by the Chinese government. During the 1950s, however, Chinese rule grew more oppressive with respect to the lamas.

By the mid-1950s there was unrest in eastern Kham and Amdo, where land reform had been implemented in full. These rebellions eventually spread into western Kham and Ü-Tsang. In 1959 (at the time of the Great Leap Forward in China), the Chinese authorities treated the Dalai Lama, by now an adult, with open impiety. In some parts of the country Chinese Communists tried to establish rural communes, as was happening in the whole of China.

In 1959, China's military crackdown on rebels in Kham and Amdo led to the "Lhasa Uprising." Full-scale resistance spread throughout Tibet. Fearing capture of the Dalai Lama, unarmed Tibetans surrounded his residence, forcing the Dalai Lama to flee with the help of the CIA to India.

The Tibetan resistance movement began with isolated resistance to PRC control in the late 1950s. Initially there was considerable success and with CIA support and aid much of southern Tibet fell into Tibetan hands, but in 1959 after the occupation of Lhasa resistance forces withdrew into Nepal. Operations continued from the semi-independent Kingdom of Mustang with a force of 2000 rebels, many of them trained at Camp Hale near Leadville, Colorado, USA. In 1969, on the eve of Kissinger's overtures to China, support was withdrawn and the Nepalese government dismantled the operation. See [13].

And if the people of tibet were indeed freed from feudalist oppresion, what do you think the chances are of them accepting the return of this oppresion once the chinese are gone?

Supporters of Sudam Husain fight to this day but its widely accepted he was a tyrant.

Surely if the goal of the chinese was to free the tibetans from fuedalism then they have acived it and can let them now shape thier own destiny.

I believe the goal was to integrate Tibet into its own system, I doubt if there was ever any plan to return autonomy to a region who had already caused problem for them.

The Dalai Lama was persuaded by those close to him to flee on the account that he could ba a better example to his people if abroad but alive than dead in tibet. He did not want to abandon his people. It was his close supporters that smuggled him out.

Did the CIA helped him? Maybe. They certainly supplied weapons to those that went against the Dali Lamas whishes and started a small violent insurgency.

Yeah right, I did a serch on the 1959 uprising and got a few facts for you.

The United States funded training and arms for the guerrillas in Tibet and the United States prior to the uprising and for several years following. From 1959 to 1964, Tibetan guerrillas were secretly trained at Camp Hale by the CIA.

The Tibetan project was codenamed ST Circus, and it was similar to the CIA operation that trained dissident Cubans in what later became the Bay of Pigs Invasion. In all, around 259 Tibetans were trained at Camp Hale. Some were parachuted back into Tibet to link up with local resistance groups (most perished); others were sent overland into Tibet on intelligence gathering missions; and yet others were instrumental in setting up the CIA-funded Tibetan resistance force that operated out of Mustang, in northern Nepal (1959-1974).

I think that far from being promoted and their bing propaganda about this in the west, the issue of tibet has been swept under the carpet for decades. This is only possible becuase the people of tibet are Buddhists and as such commited to pacificm. If they were not then tibet would be another palestine.

The history of internal local conflict in Tibet doesn't support the Pacifist concept.

Political correctness? Malady?
I take it you considder it OK for for people to have thier human reights violated, and for an unacountable elite to force thier will and way of live upon people?

I dont consider anything I am mearly pointing out the dictatorships dont have to play by our rules. Mind you i beleive unaccountable elite have shaped every ones lives since civilisation bagan its just how open they are about it thats changed

I agree the chinese goverment don't give a toss. I admire the people of tibet for thier pacifism while at the same time I think they are too peacefull for thier own "good".

I really don't get where you come up with this ideal of a pacifist nation. The Gurkha's are world renowned worriers and the Tibetans are a fairly brutal lot.

The only way that Tibet could get independence will be if they can make thier province more trubble for the chinese than thier natural resources are worth.

You forget China dosent have an elected govt. They will flaten any oposition and the west will look the other way because we are so dependent on China for our own economic ends at the moment.

So i guess tibetan culture (at least in Tibet) is dead either way. They get assimilated by the chinese or they win thier independance by violence and in the process will then have distroyed thier own culture.

Prety acurate assesment but they wont win anything and never have in the past.

Sorry but that is an insult to communists!

There is a market Economy, People can own land or at least means of production. There is no social security, state pension, very limited if any free health care. So what exactly is communist about China?

One party system, severly restricted freedom of expression and internment of people for political reasons, .

Sounds like any other fashist regime to me!

No argument from me. Cuba is a dictatorship but at least they pay homage to the Communist ideal.


Communism was just an excuse for a change of leadership in China if you ask me. As we all know Communism only works on paper. Introduce lust for power and greed into the equation and it falls apart. Sadly a lot of humans seem to have a lust for power and the vast majority of them are greedy


ATB

Mark

[Lazlo]

Hi Mark. Can you post some sources for the above text please?

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

Hi Mark. Can you post some sources for the above text please?

History of Tibet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Image:China-Tibet.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taiwan's international legal position: A Defining Moment?


ATB

Mark

[Lazlo]

Thanks very much.