Employment Law - Question

[Ding Dang Doo]

Righto,

the problem I have is as an employer.

One of the guys who works for me has very sadly suffered a nervous breakdown, and has been sectioned. (Hopefully, nothing to do with working ofr me!)

He is currently in hospital (this happened a couple of weeks ago), undergoing treatment. I have received a sick note signing him off for three weeks - I can live with this (he isn't getting paid BTW, nor am I paying SSP, as you cannot claim this back). I have paid him over what I owe him, as I'm trying to help through what must be a difficult time for him and his family, but I can no longer afford to pay his wage.

So the question I have is how long am I going to keep his job 'open' for him? Or do I have to? The doctors say his condition is treatable, but cannot put a length of time on this.

He has been working for me for just over a year. I would like to keep him, he is good at his job, but the orders keep coming in, and I need to have the workforce in place to fulfill them. Sooner or later I'm going to let one of my customers down, unless I take someone on to replace the guy who is not well.

Problems... problems....

Hope someone can throw a bit of light on this for me.

Pete

[Tony F]

Originally Posted by Ding Dang Doo

Righto,

the problem I have is as an employer.

One of the guys who works for me has very sadly suffered a nervous breakdown, and has been sectioned. (Hopefully, nothing to do with working ofr me!)

He is currently in hospital (this happened a couple of weeks ago), undergoing treatment. I have received a sick note signing him off for three weeks - I can live with this (he isn't getting paid BTW, nor am I paying SSP, as you cannot claim this back). I have paid him over what I owe him, as I'm trying to help through what must be a difficult time for him and his family, but I can no longer afford to pay his wage.

So the question I have is how long am I going to keep his job 'open' for him? Or do I have to? The doctors say his condition is treatable, but cannot put a length of time on this.

He has been working for me for just over a year. I would like to keep him, he is good at his job, but the orders keep coming in, and I need to have the workforce in place to fulfill them. Sooner or later I'm going to let one of my customers down, unless I take someone on to replace the guy who is not well.

Problems... problems....

Hope someone can throw a bit of light on this for me.

Pete

I'm no legal expert, but I do employ staff and my take would be this: firstly you possibly have to pay SSP, it's not the earth but if he has a sick note you're oblidged to pay that regardless of being unable to claim it back. It's one of those neat government tricks, employees think it's paid by the government when in fact it's you and I who foot the bill.

Secondly, your actions must be 'reasonable', this is a grey area but if you need to employ someone to undertake his role because he's unfit to do so you can either sack him because he's unable to do his job (subject to reasonableness re time) or employ someone else and make him redundant. The latter should cost very little in view of the time he's been employed although as it's over a year he will be entitled to something modest.

Alternatively you could employ someone else on a short term contract until he returns?

Really this is just my take, wouldn't hurt to speak to someone qualified before doing anything serious.

Hope he recovers quickly and this is all moot

[dry suit diver]

I was under the impression the person could not be made redundant only the post.

I may be wrong but from dealings with tragicus sorry Unite thats what I was told.

[Colin Marriott]

So, here's the details on SSP

Statutory Sick Pay : Directgov - Money, tax and benefits

And here's some stuff about UK employment law

UK Employment Law - Sickness Absence

HTH
ColinM

[Ding Dang Doo]

Originally Posted by Tony F

I'm no legal expert, but I do employ staff and my take would be this: firstly you possibly have to pay SSP, it's not the earth but if he has a sick note you're oblidged to pay that regardless of being unable to claim it back. It's one of those neat government tricks, employees think it's paid by the government when in fact it's you and I who foot the bill.

Secondly, your actions must be 'reasonable', this is a grey area but if you need to employ someone to undertake his role because he's unfit to do so you can either sack him because he's unable to do his job (subject to reasonableness re time) or employ someone else and make him redundant. The latter should cost very little in view of the time he's been employed although as it's over a year he will be entitled to something modest.

Alternatively you could employ someone else on a short term contract until he returns?

Really this is just my take, wouldn't hurt to speak to someone qualified before doing anything serious.

Hope he recovers quickly and this is all moot

Thanks Tony... so do I !

Just to bring up to speed... I've spoken to ACAS - I do have to keep his job open, but not indefinitely... I will at some stage (after a 'reasonable' period of time, have to request some information or report from his doctor, from there I can make a (non medical) judgement as to whether the employee will be able to return to his job... there are certain procedures to go through, which is very long winded, but it has to done correctly, as mental health would probably come under disabilities at work... a bit of a minefield!

ACAS also put me onto HMRC about SSP. Long and the short is, I DO have to pay the SSP, and you can claim some back by doing some maths and plucking some figures out of the air... guess what I don't qualify to claim it back!

Originally Posted by dry suit diver

I was under the impression the person could not be made redundant only the post.

I may be wrong but from dealings with tragicus sorry Unite thats what I was told.

I'm sure you are right with this... There are other routes I can take.

I hope I don't have to go through any of this and my man takes his medicine and gets back to work!

Pete

[Tony F]

Originally Posted by dry suit diver

I was under the impression the person could not be made redundant only the post.

I may be wrong but from dealings with tragicus sorry Unite thats what I was told.

No, I think you're correct but job descriptions define the post - if you follow.

[Sparky750]

Bloody cold hearted employers the poor guy sends himself mad working for you and your wondering how to get shut without paying him







Sack him

[copperband]

Can't you just employ somebody new on the indefinite short term, or full time long term? If they prove to be a worthwhile employee then you have to make a choice which one loses their job should Employee No1 be deemed fit to work again. That way you get your work done, you won't lose custom and in the short term won't cost you any more than you're paying now. If No2 turns out to be a bit crap then no worries in making him (his post) redundant if and when No1 returns to work.

[Scubee]

I know nothing about sick pay, so i can't help you with that, exceot that if his emplyment contract says you pay him either occupational sick pay, or SSP, then you must pay it. If he hasn't got a contract, and he has been employed more than 2 months, you better get him a contract ASAP.

ACAS are usually pretty good with the advice they give you. Essentially, no, you can't just sack him, you have to go through, as a minimum, the statutory procedures. There shouldn't be a problem if you know he s gong to be off for x weeks to employ a temp to cover him.

Redundancy is about the post,not the person. If a job disappears because there is less need for work of a particular kind, or there is another reason (e.g reorganising the business) then the employer is supposed to make reasoanble attempts to redeploy an affected individual. It would not be seen as a redundancy situation if one individual was dismissed by reason of redundancy and another person was employed to do broadly the same job. that is likely to result in a large bill if the case went to ET.

Depending on how long he is sick ofr, and how long he has been emplyed for, there are other things you need to consider, such as the DDA which acknowledges that certain mental ilnesses can be considered a disability becasue a) they have a significant impact on the individuals day-to-day lfe and b) the effects are long term.

PM me if you want more help

[MuscleBob.Buffpants]

Honestly, don't try to do this by yourself.

Approach a specialist employment law firm (e.g. Lewis Silkin |Home) and get it done right first time.

Better paying for a few hours of a solicitors time than paying 10 times as much after the employment tribunal is finished with you.