Lunatics running the asylum

[sweeny]

Hi everyone, I brought this over from SWM as I feel it needs to be up on diver forums forever so that as many divers see it as poss. Please take on board whats being said here, as the grip of the lunatics who are running the asylum is only going to get tighter. The words below are nothing but common sense from normal thinking divers! And as we have seen with that female archaeologist who spoke on the Oceans program about "despising salvagemen"-this anal behaviour is steadily becoming more facist. If everyone please puts up a seen it post after reading it, that should give it a bit of perpetuation- the more posts the better. See how long we can keep this one up people

Idiots in charge of the Asylum
written by Steve Roue at IMASS

'The preservation in-situ of underwater cultural heritage shall be considered as the first
option before allowing or engaging in any activities directed at this heritage'.
This is the current thinking by our tax paid government Archaeologists at English Heritage, and
their loony mates at UNESCO.
Text book academics all, as opposed to practical time served, self-funded divers, who for
the past 50+years have researched, found, excavated, conserved, reported and often publically
displayed 95% of all our known history from under the sea. Museums across the world are full
of artefacts that have been recovered by these amateur groups increasing the knowledge of
mankind, and have provided many of the missing links from our past. Some artefacts have been
lost or destroyed by poor conservation etc, but this is a very small price to pay against the mass
of information gained.
The few individuals who have managed to worm their way into positions of power at
English Heritage have attempted to put an almost complete stop to any further useful or
important information coming to light from historic wreck in the UK. The bar has been set so
high for site survey, and the fact that excavation can only be carried out if the site is at high risk,
practically no real underwater archaeology is currently being carried out in UK. Waters.
Sites are being surveyed so they can monitor the natural deterioration or destruction of wrecks
by erosion, corrosion and physical damage, but EH feels this is more useful than actually
recovering artefacts to gain the information they hold.
Questions that need to be answered by the archaeologists are;
1 - Which is more important? An artifact or the information gained by its study regarding
what it was used for, how was it made, where was it made, its weight, size etc?
2 - If a wreck is so important that it needs protection, how can it be that at the same time
it is so insignificant that it, and any valuable information it holds can be left buried in
the seabed forever? (as is the current policy).
3 - How can they justify to future generations, that we have deliberately left known wrecks to
continue to deteriorate rather than recover 90% of the information and history contained
within a wreck?
4 - How can NAS still take money off divers for training courses, when they know there is
next to nothing for them to work on after they have trained, as most work on historic
wreck has been stopped?
5 - Does anyone know of a government paid Marine Archaeologist who has ever had the
interest or motivation to work a wreck, at their own cost or in their own time?
6 - How was it acceptable for the likes of George Bass and Robert Stenuit to excavate every
wreck they were involved with, but now it is such a taboo, no one has the balls to criticize
their behaviour?
7 - Why is it so wrong to fund wreck excavation and conservation of artifact material, by the
sale of coins for example, when the coins are often identical and were never intended to be
5
kept together as a collection?
8 - Is archaeology 'important' or merely 'interesting' to the small percentage of the population
that can be bothered to read, or look at what has been published? Medical Science and
Ecology is 'important' as it effects lives - 'archaeology' does not.
The general public like looking at artefacts rather than reading academic reports, which is why
museums in general are so popular. The public go to look - not read. I believe it is far better for
society if thousands of individuals own and treasure a piece of history, than it is to keep it all
together on the remote chance that a PhD student may at some time in the future, want to study
the wear on coin die's etc. for example!
All the archaeological reports ever written are generally an assumption of what might have
happened when a vessel sank. All the 100's of hours spent surveying a wreck, only records
how it was at one small moment of time, with little or no relevance as to what may have
happened at the time of sinking. If all reports had to undergo proper review, cross-examination
or close scrutiny by maritime experts, most people would realize what a waste of time, effort
and money measuring to a high degree of accuracy really is.
As examples, two Plymouth wrecks which were found at around the same time, the Cattewater
and Catharina von Flensburg. All that is known about the former came from artefacts
recovered and limited excavation at the time. We have learned nothing new since, and never
will if the site is not excavated. The latter has been excavated by amateurs and hundreds of
artefacts recorded, in addition to the vessels construction being established. As a result,
thousands of people now own a piece of history, there have been artifact exhibitions in
Plymouth and elsewhere, divers have given talks to hundreds of people, and there are years of
lengthy reports on file should anyone be interested.
Let us hope that the idiots in power see sense, and let underwater archaeology again flourish in
the UK.
Steve Roue.

A typical case in example
When Colossus was built by way of plans taken from a captured French prize of a then well known fast and effective French 74 gun battleship called the Courageux. This was a deliberate act by the Admiralty as the Courageux was a ship with an impressive and formidable reputation. British shipbuilders, however, improved on the French design. They also replaced the 24lb upper deck guns she carried with smaller lighter 18lb weapons; a similar act occurred with the quarter deck guns; this all went to make the Colossus the much faster and more impressive sailor we see described in the references presented below. Her keel was laid in 1781 by a Quaker shipbuilder named William Cleverly.

Launched in 1787, HMS Colossus soon earned a fine reputation as one of the best and fleetest warships in the British Navy. During her short life of just 11 years service, apart from taking part in major naval engagements, Colossus covered numerous duties; occasionally serving as a convoy escort; as indeed she did during two ill fated West Indies expedition fleets of 1795. However, her main job was on station with what was known at the time as:- “the Blockading inshore squadron”; a duty Colossus performed well off Toulon; Malta and Cadiz. The Naval chronicle states that- “Only the fastest ships in the fleet are chosen for such duty”.

In 1793, due to her speedy reputation, Colossus was rushed by Admiral Lord Hood to Cagliari for reinforcements to aid in the then ensuing siege of Toulon. Hood wrote of her return:- “His Majesty’s ship Colossus returned to me today bringing with her 350 good troops” After numerous successes like these, the Times newspaper later wrote in 1797:- “Colossus was one of the finest 74’s in the service, and a prime sailor”

During her time Colossus had no less than seven Captains, three of which entertained Admirals- Admiral Pole; Admiral Christian; and if only briefly-the now famous Admiral Cornwallis. It is interesting to note that Admirals chose the ships in which they served; often opting for the biggest, grandest, or more often as not, the fastest ships in the service.

Even in battle Colossus was often chosen to take the lead. After the Battle off the French Island of Groix, in 1795, Admiral Lord Bridport stated:- “I made the signal for four of the best sailing ships to chase down the French; Sans Parell; Orion; Russell; and Colossus”. When they caught up with the fleeing enemy fleet the ensuing battle, which lasted for over three hours, took place within easy range of many enemy shore batteries. During the lengthy engagement, high up on Colossus’ mainmast, a Scottish piper played heartily on his bagpipes until the French struck their colours in defeat.

Two years later in 1797, while back on blockade duty off Cadiz, the then Captain of Colossus, George Murray, was singled out for praise by a Spanish Admiral who stated that:-“ Colossus had kept up so unremitting a watch” that under a flag of truce he invited Murray to a bull fight. Even though the Spaniard offered up his own nephew as insurance, Murray “thought it proper to decline the invitation.” In the squadron at this time Murray in Colossus was serving directly alongside Nelson in Theseus who wrote in cander:- “We are looking at the ladies walking the walls and Mall of Cadiz and know of the ridicule they make of their sea officers”

A little later Colossus and three other warships were sent by the Admiralty to bolster the main fleet at sea; which was about to see action in a major Battle off Cape St Vincent. The Mediterranean Fleets overall Commander, Sir John Jervis, wrote to his superiors of his gratitude:- “Thank you for sending so good a batch, they are a valuable addition to my already excellent stock” Again, when battle commenced, Colossus was one of the first ships sent into the fray; and bearing the brunt of the first broadsides in front of the Spanish guns; some of her rigging was immediately shot away and severely damaged. Consequently she took no further part in the engagement.

After repairing at Lisbon Colossus was sent back on station off Cadiz; until in 1798 Nelson requested all assistance to defeat the French fleet which was believed to have entered the Mediterranean. The Battle of the Nile was about to commence. Overall Commander, Sir John Jervis, replied to Nelsons request:- “The Colossus is now most powerfully manned and Murray is to good a fellow to be left when so much is needed to be done.” Although the ship did not actually take part in the action at Aboukir Bay, as the British conquering battle damaged fleet limped back to the Great Bay of Naples to repair, Colossus chased down and successfully captured one of 3 French warships that had escaped from the engagement. At this time it was later written that Colossus was cannibalised to help repair the other warships. Although she did indeed give up a few of her spare weapons and one spare Bower anchor to Nelson and the Vanguard, cannibalism to the detriment of one warship, to serve the purposes of another, was highly unlikely; especially when the fleet was in a friendly port where supplies of wood etc was readily available. In fact, whilst the fleet was repairing at Naples, we actually find that Colossus had already been sent back to the Inshore Squadron and was again on blockade duty; this time off Malta until reinforcements came to retake the Island into British control. Colossus did not return to Naples until months later and then the fleet had all but been repaired.

At the end of September 1798, with Malta no longer a threat, Colossus put into Gibraltar after mistakenly capturing a friendly transport vessel. After complaints from the owners the vessel and its cargo were returned. Colossus was then ordered back to Naples where the other warships there were almost fit for duty:- “Every assistance has been given to the Vanguard, the Culloden; and Alexander so that these ships will be fit again to sea in a few days. Yesterday His Majesty’s ship Colossus, Captain Murray, with four victuallers from Gibraltar, came to anchor in this port”( Naples) This is when Colossus gave up her spare Bower anchor etc to the Vanguard sealing her own fate later at Scilly.

With the advancing armies of Napoleon causing concern in Italy, Colossus was ordered to return to the Kingdom of the two Sicily's to aid in the evacuation of Naples. Here the ship was chosen, probably by Nelson himself, to take a precious and extremely valuable collection of Greek antiquities back to England. This was as a personal favour to British ambassador, and friend of Nelson, Sir William Hamilton. His choice of ship, probably due to her favourable reputation, was deliberate.

On her way home to England Colossus stopped of at Algiers where the Dey, in light of recent British victories at sea, and in showing simple admiration towards one of His Majesty’s ships of War, presented Captain Murray with a golden Sabre. Colossus then set sail for Lisbon where she was to take on board the body of Lord Shuldham. Also in the River Tagus at this time, a convoy of transports were waiting to sail home under the protection of Colossus and other ships of war. The convoy, most of which was:- “bound for Ireland and other northern ports” then set off for England. News of ships at Lisbon was brought to England on a packet ship called the Adolphus, stating that twelve of his Majesty’s ships of war, including Colossus, and some transport vessels were in the Tagus. Shortly after the Convoy set sail. Colossus along with eight other smaller vessels then parted company with the main convoy somewhere in the entrance of the English channel.

On the 7th December Colossus entered the Isles of Scilly to seek refuge from a north westerly gale. She came to anchor in St Mary’s Roads with a view to ride out the storm before setting off on the last leg of her journey. Unfortunately, three days later on the 10th of December, the wind veered around to the south east. As it grew ever stronger one of the ships main Bower anchors broke and, in the teeth of the gale, Colossus dragged on the one remaining anchor. Without her spare Bower anchor to throw in, having given it to Nelson at Naples, nothing Murray did arrested the ships progress towards the rocks. Eventually the remaining cable broke and Colossus was eventually wrecked on the Southard Wells reef off the foot of Samson Island.


Due to the cargo she carried, which holds direct ties to Sir William and Lady Hamilton and of course Lord Nelson, the wreck site of HMS Colossus is now one of our nations most significant shipwrecks. However, the Government protection order the wreck site received in July 2001 was solely due to the ships wooden structure itself. When these wooden structural remains were first discovered in May 1999 by the author, they were mostly in pristine condition. However, these now lie deteriorating on the sea floor and this wonderful piece of British history is being lost forever. The current Government protection system today, generally means- do nothing!

Todd Stevens
_______________
Wreck of the Colossus www.hmscolossus.co.uk

Ghosts of Rosevear and the wreck of the Nancy Packet www.ghostsofrosevear.co.uk

Her sails are draggled in the brine
that gladden late the skies
and her pennon that kissed the fair moonshine
down many a fathom lies.

[stevechesh]

Its typical of EH to get involved, constantly put hurdles in front of divers, control access to the sites and then do nothing on them.

When will they realise that the average divers will be able to get more information on a wreck in a few dives, than they will do in a month of Sundays. You only have to look at some of the privately funded successes that we have been involved in - as well as yourself that proves this.

Its high time for the likes of EH and DCMS to work with divers rather than against them.

Have EH ever identified a wreck, or do they still take credit from everyones elses hard work

[Snapper]

Having read this (as it happens I agree with the sentiments), I am adding a post as instructed!!

[nitroxdiver001]

Hi all,

It is not only our underwater heritage they are not interested in.

If a site has no income for them they seem to have no interest in it. I have travelled round the uk a lot looking at other Archaeological sites. All those with no income have just been left to "look after themselves".
Regards Bob.

[ShineyDiver]

Seen It

[Sonicthediver]

Seen it.

Have been saying similar for years.

[The Duck]

Seen it

[broady]

Seen it

G

.

[puddlediver]

seen it.
lyv

[Rich Payne]

Seen it, and totally agree with it, and as an archaeologist i hate it when people like "that woman" on oceans start spouting off as it gives us all a bad name, as it is easy to assume that it is the consensus of us all.

This also smacks of double standards as EH and others seem quite happy about local archaeological societies who excavate sites above the water as un paid volunteers at weekends, but not similar operations underwater.

From working for commercial archaeological units i.e. developer funded and mostly working on urban sites undergoing redevelopment. I know that some of the best research and certainly the more interesting sites are carried out by the interested amateur who can be far more enthusiastic and certainly as skilled as their "professional" counterparts. As these sites are not usually under threat from development and so no funding is available from contractors this is the only way these site can be excavated, unless a university department or similar can secure funding.

Added to this, on land one of the best forms of preservation in some cases can be to leave the archaeology buried, but this is sadly not the case with underwater sites as they are under constant threat and without the work of the self funded diver or amateur enthusiast a lot of information and artefacts will be lost.