Your views on weighting systems?

[Driftwood]

<font color='#0000FF'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]The harness IS superior to the belt

Your opinion Dom, and you are welcome to it.....

But saying that a harness is superior simply because you've had problems with weight belts is by no means a definitive reason.... I've never (so far) accidentally released my (shot)belt. Yes, it does sometime rotate but that's due to my lazyness for not properly setting up the belt my adjusting the positioning of the shot (mine is not full so the shot can congregate in the sections or ends). Even if it does there is enough webbing to make a loop under the buckle which can be pulled to release it from an obstructed location.

Don't believe me? Dived with Fi at Abbs for 52 mins, 10 min boat ride to harbour and then walked to the car and the belt never so much as moved. Guess I just know my kit well enough to sort niggles  

Besides, are you telling me that the loops of a harness are NEVER going to be obstructed by a BCD pocket? Didn't think so......

Oh, and don't you do a buddy check? Any differences in kit config, signals, procedures etc should be covered BEFORE entering the water. As for the slowing issue, I won't take offence. It was a comment with regard to the physical requirement not the skill of the diver I was talking about. With a harness there is no quick release.

Matt.

A bouyant ascent is a last ditch &quot;get me the f**k out of here, I'm about to drown&quot; scenario. Weightbelt is one finger and half a second, harness is two handsand possibly 10-30 seconds...

That's enought to kill you. Bends can be (potentially) cured, drowning can't.

As I've said, and I think by your own submission, regarding hired equipment or non-familiarity, poor maintenance, complacentcy or just not sorting things as they should be you can end up with problems.

[Mdemon]

Sorry Driftwood, but there is a fly in your ointment there.

Yup, it's easier to de-bend at the surface than recover someone from underwater, but the point you're missing is that a lot of the fatalities involve people going unconscious during a rapid, uncontrolled ascent - exactly the situation you would encounter if you dumped your weight belt. &nbsp;Some cases mention people breaking the surface unconscious only to disappear again.

What would be the circumstance for a

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]&quot;get me the f**k out of here, I'm about to drown&quot; scenario

? &nbsp;OOA? Well there are 101 other ways of handling that. &nbsp;Since we aim to maintain neutral bouancy, finning upwards is going to make us positive and the ascent will be more controlled. Still OOA? Breath off your jacket I suppose. &nbsp;

The only possible situation I can think of where you'd want to dump lead is if you had plummited to obscene depths and your BCD isn't providing enough lift. &nbsp;And in that situation I'd rather be coming up slow rather than making like a Polaris. &nbsp;I just don't see the odds of this occurring coming anywhere close to the odds of losing a weight belt, or harness, by mistake.

[Doug Parker]

The last thing i'd want during a dive is for me to be nowhere near my weight, that would probably stress me more, knowing that i'm going to hit the surface at a huge speed. The instructor that taught us rescues was more than happy to cut anything off you that was in the way, including your suit inflate to start resussitation. &nbsp;I think ditchable weight is an outmoded idea that we've got round in other ways through experience. &nbsp;The quicker your weight is attached to you so it won't come off the better. &nbsp;I &nbsp;won't slag you off when you come to visit me in hospital because you've shredded my gear to rescue me.

[MATTBIN]

Drift
I understand your concern regarding not being able to remove weight quickly in a bad situation but do feel that ALL the weight belts I've seen are poorly designed and rely on not slipping over the hips. Now given that we wear slippery rubber in water the only thing keeping it up is friction and having a waist slimmer than your hips. For some of us thats not the case, so the belt is held only by friction and as we dive deeper our suits compress thus loosing vital friction. At this point a harness would offer greater protection against accidental loss and I think I would balance the risks as we do in most of our kit.
Its a personal thing I suppose, as is so much with diving.
Out of curiosity where do the DIR guys put there's, isnt it attached to the tanks/backplate on twins, is that also true of singles, it then becomes non QD.
What happens also if you need to remove BCD whilst in a semi and the weight is behind you, does it not become very difficult to do this task as you would be positively buoyant without that weight, therefore a weight belt/harness looks a better/safer option, in my opinion.

Matt

[RobK]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ June 25 2003,09:14)]Drift
&lt;Snip&gt;
Out of curiosity where do the DIR guys put there's, isnt it attached to the tanks/backplate on twins, is that also true of singles, it then becomes non QD.
&lt;Snip&gt;
Matt

Basically it depends where it needs to go. It's important to get the weight distributed to allow for horizontal trim. Depending on the kit being used and the person using it the weight will be in various locations.

For most people a fair amount of weight is usually held as v-weights or p-weights or a heavier backplate. This is true of twins or singles.

If weight is needed around the waist in order to trim out then a weightbelt is worn. This would go under the harness to stop it falling off mistakenly. I use one myself as I tend to be a bit head heavy.

Generally speaking you don't need much ditchable weight. If you have no weight on your belt and you needed to ditch, you'd ditch the cannister.

Obviously in an overhead environment ditchable weight is no use anyway  

HTH
Rob.

[daz]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Driftwood @ June 25 2003,01:28)]Besides, are you telling me that the loops of a harness are NEVER going to be obstructed by a BCD pocket? Didn't think so......

<font color='#000080'>Not trying to be argumentative at all, &nbsp;but in my experience most of the people who I have dived with have the harness pockets located at hip level, lower than the BCD so the releases are not obstructed. &nbsp;

I am confident that I can remove and ditch one pocket either on me (Not that I use one anymore) or on a victim as quick as I could release a weightbelt and I've tried this on my Rescue course.

One other advantage is that at least it is possible to drop half the weight rather than the whole lot.

It is posible to get positive releases buckles for weightbelts, but these would involve removing a pin and then releasing the buckle, so again at the cost of reducing the risk of accidental loss additional time to release.

Daz

P.S Sorry Matt can't help with your problem, apart from suggesting you eat more pies &nbsp;

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]But saying that a harness is superior simply because you've had problems with weight belts is by no means a definitive reason....

No. It wouldn't be. But it's not a claim I've made. In fact, it seems to be the logic YOU'RE using against harnesses: One incident, down with all harnesses.

Harnesses are superior to belts for the simple reason that belts are crap, and dangerous crap to boot.

Harnesses don't fall off, don't migrate around a diver, distribute weight more evenly, and lend themselves to better trim. Belts, if you're lucky, just hang on your hips, and if you're unlucky, they migrate around or fall off.

As for &quot;harnesses have no quick release&quot;, I don't know what harnesses you're looking at, but the system on every one I've ever seen has been: Grab toggle, pull. Compared to the &quot;Grab buckle, pull&quot; belt, I fail to see how you can call one quick-release but not the other.

&quot;Weightbelt is one finger and half a second&quot; - IF, and ONLY IF, the weight belt is where you expect it to be - by NO means gauranteed.
If it's migrated around, the quick game of &quot;Hunt the buckle&quot; you're obliged to do is going to take you a lot longer than the two-handed grab-and-pull the harness will take.

Still, take comfort in the fact that if you ever dive with me, you will have no fears about it being difficult to locate my lead's quick releases, as there aren't any. I've never yet encountered any scenario where ditching lead would help that couldn't be better solved by being well-equipped and not panicking.

[darthmoll]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Dominic @ June 25 2003,23:37)]Harnesses are superior to belts for the simple reason that belts are crap, and dangerous crap to boot.

Belts, if you're lucky, just hang on your hips, and if you're unlucky, they migrate around or fall off.

As for &quot;harnesses have no quick release&quot;, I don't know what harnesses you're looking at, but the system on every one I've ever seen has been: Grab toggle, pull. Compared to the &quot;Grab buckle, pull&quot; belt, I fail to see how you can call one quick-release but not the other.

&quot;Weightbelt is one finger and half a second&quot; - IF, and ONLY IF, the weight belt is where you expect it to be - by NO means gauranteed.
If it's migrated around, the quick game of &quot;Hunt the buckle&quot; you're obliged to do

You seem to be down on belts, it is only your opinion that they are dangerous crap, the only divers i know that use a harness use them because they cant keep a belt on, due to too many pies.

During initial training students should be taught to adjust their belts underwater, this not only takes in to account the compression of the suit it also means that they have to check the position of the buckle, i always do this, i really do not like to see experianced divers comming out of the water with weight belts either hanging round their @r$e or twisted so the buckle is not visable. I feel this is simply down to the training they have received.

Some weight harness systems are far from quick release, the Hydrotech one has a huge wire that has to be pulled out about 450mm before it starts to release.

I have tried a few different types of weight systems over the years, and have gone back to a standard weight belt with 20lb of lead, two weight retainers and two buckles, it means that i will not have my belt pulled off by a student that is having a stressfull day and just needs to hold on to something

[Stu Sheridan]

I prefer a belt over a harness, i've got both.
As for P and V weights, my rig weighs a ton already so I dont want it to be even more of a pain to drag into a rib or bust my knees goin up a ladder.
I do think that the 2/3 kg blocks most peeps use are crap tho.
I melted a few down into our &quot;club&quot; mould which produces longer blocks. These sit on the hips, one at either side and are so comfortable I almost forget im wearing them.
I think its the position of the weight not where it hangs from that causes all the discomfort.
Anyway, all academic if your shape means belts fall off.
Belt loops on your drysuit?

Stu.

[MATTBIN]

Darth
not sure if you are having a pop at me there mate, but I constantly re-adjust/tighten my belt during a dive (as trained to do) and still its too low slung when I get out and walk back to the car, so I think either I have been unlucky in that the three different sorts of belts I have bought have all been rubbish or there is a fundamental design problem. Further to that anyone who has dived with me I hope would say that I am not a fat bellied bastard but do have a slight belly (middle aged) that is about the same size (or slightly bigger) than my hips. So again I would suggest that there is a design flaw, actually I think there is a design flaw even if you are a porky belly and the damn thing nearly falls off, after all a rotund diver isnt exactly a rarity so the kit should cope.
Clearly though there is no one system that works in all situations, that's beginning to sound like an opening in the market to me.

Matt