Your views on weighting systems?

[daz]

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Jetsam @ June 27 2003,14:21)]The Scenario:

You are down at 25m somebody else is there,maybe your buddy,maybe you have bumped into someone else,whatever its you and them.They look at you then start to flail around,then bolt for the surface,

Or....

They start to flail around, you swim to assist, they grab your spare webbing on your belt, they pull, they let go.  You make a desperate grab despite everything else going on and miss.

So now you are on the surface from 24m and they are not.  You are bent (possibly), they are dead.

You did make some good points, but inflating orally is possible although I do suspect it could be pretty tricky if you are trying to hold them up as well.

The easiest way to remove the pockets on a harness is a sharp tug on the handle or grab both handles put your knees against them and push away.  As long as the harness is well maintained and you are familiar with harness systems it should not be time consuming or difficult.

This is not a personal attack of one system over another but as you see, each system has it's benefits and downside.   It is a personal decision that we have to weigh up (No pun intended)  as long as it is a informed decision it is not neccessarily wrong.

Daz

[Jetsam]

Ahh Hideo,so much still to learn,i did not say you let go of them,have you ever tried to keep something on the surface that does not want to stay there,and if its a 20st man with 18kgs of weight being lifted by a 7st woman in an XXS BCD there is no chance.

Ahh Daz,re-read the bit about not having excess webbing.
Also if somebody knocks off your mask and pulls the reg from your mouth do you deduce that you must wear a full face mask? And if somebody in panic pulls your HP hose from the gauge spewing air into the depths do you deduce you need a Mares HUB (god forbid!)?

Both of you re-read the bit about being like Michelin Man and having restricted movements,it is all you can do to keep them up,let alone orally inflate.Most good instructors will demonstrate how difficult this can be,and imagine if you are in surf/waves.........difficult indeed.

Somebody said in this thread they saw no reason to ditch weights.........i have given a reason.

Unfortunately this situation crops up time and time again,read the BSAC incident reports        www.bsac.org      i can't remember the exact location,but do a site search for incident reports 2002 and you should get it and be able to link back to the 5-6 years previous.

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>Fair point on the webbing,  but any webbing (even a few inches could be grabbed.)

Like I said orally inflating is an option,  but note I also  said

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]I do suspect it could be pretty tricky

You said :-

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (=Jetsam @ June 27 2003,22:09)]
Also if somebody knocks off your mask and pulls the reg from your mouth do you deduce that you must wear a full face mask? And if somebody in panic pulls your HP hose from the gauge spewing air into the depths do you deduce you need a Mares HUB (god forbid!)?

A full face mask can also be ripped off,  I would suggest a better option would be for me to get away from them,  find my reg or alternate (Which is necklaced under my chin) and put on my spare mask.  

As for the HP hose - What HP hose   , but even if I did have a HP hose I could just shutdown that side of my twins   (OK not fair   ).  But it is pretty difficult to pull a gauge off of the end of a hose and even if it is pulled off,  the air loss is not as huge as some people would imagine,  you would be in bigger trouble if they pulled the end off a low pressure hose.

You said

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (=Jetsam @ June 27 2003,22:09)]
Somebody said in this thread they saw no reason to ditch weights.........i have given a reason.

The scenario you give is a very valid reason to ditch weights and I do not disagree with your reason for ditching weight.  

My point is that it should be possible to ditch weights even if they are wearing a harness.  

As I said, both systems have pros and cons,  it is an individuals decision to weigh up the pros and cons of each system to decide which way to go.

It is possible to come up with a myriad of situations that could cause problems with either setup how the situation is dealt with will also come down to the individual.

Daz

P.S What's wrong with a HUB ?  Just kidding  

[hideo]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Jetsam @ June 27 2003,22:09)]Ahh Hideo,so much still to learn,i did not say you let go of them,have you ever tried to keep something on the surface that does not want to stay there,and if its a 20st man with 18kgs of weight being lifted by a 7st woman in an XXS BCD there is no chance.

very true, and i hope there will always be something still to learn.

i have done lifts where the victim was very negatively buoyant, and inflated orally.  not easy, but possible, admittedly i didn't do it very well, but i did get him afloat.  

i guess that if i were a 7st woman i would find it quite hard to lift 23st, but i don't have first hand experience not, being a woman (at least, not when i'm awake  )

[darthmoll]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (hideo @ June 27 2003,16:58)]why did you let them go?  if you were holding them firmly all the time then your buoyancy should hold you both up.  

Do you know what you are talking about? i have seen divers that use so much weight they can hardly keep themselves on the surface, get real.

[hideo]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (darthmoll @ June 28 2003,00:58)]

Do you know what you are talking about? i have seen divers that use so much weight they can hardly keep themselves on the surface, get real.

well, that's just stupid, why would you ever need so much weight?  surely if you are weighing yourself down that much then you're just inviting problems.  if you aren't weighted so that you can easily get yourself up and stay up, what chance does anyone else have?  

if i was on a massive acid trip and really, really wanted to dive with tht much lead, i'd make damn sure that it could come away easily and my buddy knew exactly how to do so. but then when i came down from the high i'd just dive with less weight.

the easy answer is to go away and think about just how much weight you need (not you but YOU - in the general sense) , and get rid of the rest.

(ps sorry if this sounds too flamey, i've not had any coffee yet today )

[Doug Parker]

I've been watching this thread and it seems to me that their is confusion between heavy tekkies and normal lightwieght divers. &nbsp;Clubbies are not likely to be on the same boat so are hardly likely to be rescuing one of the heavy gits. I'm confident enough in my own abilities to rescue my mate and myself and if i'm not happy with his abilities to do the same, i won't dive with him. &nbsp;Clubbies haven't got the same amount of knowledge through experience, so you couldn't expect one of them to know what to do with an overwieghted,staged up tek but i'd expect the latter to be able to perform a rescue on the clubbie without batting an eyelid. &nbsp;Oxtox doesn't count.

[daz]

<font color='#000080'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (DougParker @ June 28 2003,10:54)]I've been watching this thread and it seems to me that their is confusion between heavy tekkies and normal lightwieght divers.  Clubbies are not likely to be on the same boat so are hardly likely to be rescuing one of the heavy gits. I'm confident enough in my own abilities to rescue my mate and myself and if i'm not happy with his abilities to do the same, i won't dive with him.  Clubbies haven't got the same amount of knowledge through experience, so you couldn't expect one of them to know what to do with an overwieghted,staged up tek but i'd expect the latter to be able to perform a rescue on the clubbie without batting an eyelid.  Oxtox doesn't count.

Not sure where I would fit in your definition.  Definitely not heavy tekkie or normal lightweight diver,  more of a middleweight diver with self considered kit setup !

But I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head.

The different styles will normally involve different setups and different weight distribution.  Training for every eventuality is not realistic, all you can do is be as well prepared as possible and to anticipate as much as possible.

I guess the other problem is that many hardcore tekkies are familiar with standard recreational type kit, but the less experienced recreational divers may not be familiar with the tekkie kit.

My kit configuration is very different to my buddies,  but I would have every confidence in his ability to assist me if needed as he is very familiar with my setup.  However I like to think that I do practice self sufficient diving first and foremost.  I do not rely on my buddy, but if he could help then great.

Also I do not get in the water with students or inexperienced divers and assume they will help me in the event of a problem.  My kit configuration is adapted so I can help myself as much as possible.  Admittedly by doing this I do to some degree affect their ability to assist me.

Daz.

[peter k]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Jetsam @ June 27 2003,22:09)]Ahh Hideo,so much still to learn,i did not say you let go of them,have you ever tried to keep something on the surface that does not want to stay there,and if its a 20st man with 18kgs of weight being lifted by a 7st woman in an XXS BCD there is no chance.

Is that 18kilos of lead or 18kilos all-together?

Peter

[Digger]

<font color='#000080'>Is it me, or am I, as a 14 stone blokey, neutrally buoyant? No-one has a problem lifting me without any gear on, and I float under normal circumstances.

My weightbelt compensates for my suit's buoyancy, and now I don't have a weightbelt, because my tanks compensate for that buoyancy.

Now, let me see. I reckon I could lift myself quite easily with 2 kilos of positive buoyancy. 2 litres of air in my drysuit and I'd go. I know this, because I only have to press the button a little bit to get myself neutral, and by the end of the dive, I've only got to press it a tiny amount and I'm going up.

All this tat about 18 stone blokes, massive weightbelts, it shouldn't be a problem. I have enough lift for me, my buddy and probably another if I needed it. And that's with 300bar tanks, and a couple of stages. I can't see how someone should be more than 5 or 6 kilos negative. It can't be comfortable or sensible to do.

I try and encourage other people I dive with to do buoyancy checks, and minimise the weight needed on a dive, getting them to control their breathing and so on. Seems to me, there's a lot of over-weighted divers out there. If you can't lift someone, they either have too much lead by a long, long way, or they're tied to something. Like a wreck.

I accept that in extreme circumstances tekkies have enough tanks that they will be way over weight with no belt and just tanks, but they surely should be thinking about ally tanks, and lightweight fabers to cut this down. Otherwise you're going to have a lot of air flying around wings/suits etc.

A clubbie could lift me, in what I consider to be a technical setup. I don't see why they wouldn't be able to. As I say, 5 kgs of lift, and I'm coming up. They would also surely be using my wing, or suit? There's plenty enough lift in either to get me up. Failing that, most BCDs have about 15-20 kgs of lift, so they can still lift me even if they're 10 kgs over what they should be!!!

Maybe I've missed the point, but there seems to be a lot of odd assertions being made. Someone pull me up if I'm way off the mark, but I'm a bit confused as to where there's a probem.

Digs.