Bardo and Boris sitting in a tree... ;)

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Janos

I really enjoy diving the KISS. I'm now happier on it than I was OC. Sometimes it is a bit of a pain to clean and to prep for the next day, but I quite enjoy kit faffing, and I like getting it just right. Plus it's warm and it's quiet.

Since diving the RB, I now come up because I've run out of wreck. On OC, it was because of gas limitations. This is a really novel experience for me.

True it is trying to kill me. But I look at that as a minor inconvenience.

Janos (Ripe for a fall...)

PS - Although I must admit that the first dive I did after passing my CCR mix course was a single tank dive to 30m on the Skye from the club rhib. [1]. And I loved it.

[1] - Just to piss ChrisCh off. I'd spell it rib usually...

Its just my view point M8. The only reasion I havent quit CCR over all the recent deaths has been my desire to do some deep dark wrecks.

Comming up because you ran out of wreck is a reasnoble excuse i supose so maby I should cut some slack for big run times but Back in my OC days did 120min dives soooooooo. 30-40m twin 15s 60mins on the wreck is doable OC.

As I said 50m is top limit for OC 50 -60 is a greay area and 60+ it kicks in big time.

I dont mean any ofense to CCR divers happily doing 40m wrecks. I have an SAC on OC of 13 so I did 45min run times on 50m dives on twin 12s. For some people I know this isnt possable.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Simon TW]

Originally Posted by Mal Bridgeman

but I wonder if he would have got into those scrapes in the first place had he been diving OC with a team?

Mal

No he would still be diving with his team in Stoney learning not to tie up other team members with line.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Simon TW

No he would still be diving with his team in Stoney learning not to tie up other team members with line.

Fair comment a year or so ago but the DIR crowd have been a lot more active on what i would call "proper diving" of late.

Very much in its infancy in the UK dive scene so we cant expect them to be discovering the next Afreak just yet.

With the first Tec2 qualified divers out the there is now a base of proper DIR trained divers who can do the 60m+ wrecks but i do wonder how many they will do due to the prohibitive cost of OC deep diving.

For 2007 I have just booked 42 dives of 60m or more. This includes three three day trips, three one week long trips (Malta, Ireland & Plymouth) and six two day trips.

How many non professional OC divers are doing over 40 60m+ dives in 07?

Not many I bet.

With all the deep gas diving teems now on CCR IF DIR UK put together a exploration deep gas diving teem it could be the only one still on on OC in the UK.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Al_Star

Most people get Rebreather’s because they like them. The fact they cost thousands rather defeats the cost saving argument in the short term – even accepting you’ll break even over many years. Chances are you’ll have upgraded from your original unit by then by adding HUD’s, new electronics, shearwaters etc. (Don’t suppose you know anyone whose done that? ). You’ll also find it hard to find anyone who’s spent thousands ever say they think it was a bad idea!

I went CCR this year - some of the reasons being:

a) Logistics of fills: I do a mixture of 50m+ trimix dives AND Club style dives <40m. Last year I was running around with a boot full of twinsets ( 4 ) just to cover all the dives. The problems came when either style of dive got blown out and was left with the 'wrong' gas for the next trip. On CCR every dive is on the 'right' gas and I like to use a lot of helium

b) I enjoy 3+ day 'expedition' style trimix diving ( 60m+ ) as this gives a good shot of getting the dives in and is very economical on time. Trying to do this OC is impossible unless the boat has onboard gas facilities or berths near a fill station. On CCR I can do this with ease.

c) Diving abroard in remote locations like Truk is VERY expensive if on OC trimix ( if not impossible ) having a very small RB suddenly opens up dives which I wouldn't be comfortable doing, such as 50m+ on air. Most of these places have a SMALL amount of helium available for RBs. As some people will know, I enjoy going on extended 'walkabouts' and taking a little RB with me enables me to dive 'safely' where the alternative would be deep air or stay-at-home.

d) Helium prices have gone through the roof in recent years and even with my very low SAC ( I had the lowest gas bill on last years DIR_UK/UE-UK Donagal trip @ £155 for the week ) I simply could not afford to do the 50+ trimix dives I do a year on OC. I don't think I am alone in this? How many OC mix dives have full boats this year??? Looking at recent trip reports I usually see about 6 people on these trips? This must be due to the high costs of mix diving? A days diving ( gas alone ) from my very cheap dive shops in Poole would currently cost me about £70 for a 30mins/60m dive.

In summary, I bought a CCR as it was the only way I could continue my diving and further develop it. I too was caught up in the 'myth' of the bid-bad-dangerous RB until last year. Don't get me wrong, they can be dangerous, but the risks have to be put into the correct context and the 'hysteria' element removed from any decision making.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Fair comment a year or so ago but the DIR crowd have been a lot more active on what i would call "proper diving" of late.

Not really Mark. Up until recently DIR_UK was very much an 'invite only' group and discussions were kept 'in-house'. This was largely because people couldn't be arsed with all the BS outside of DIR and trips could be organised for like-minded divers.

6-7 years ago we were doing 70m+ dives. The difference between then and now is the internet and the ability to post trip reports easily. I think there is now a greater acceptance of DIR and a lot of hostility has dissapeared since the 'techdiver-days' of DIR. There was a waiting/reserves list of at least 3 divers per trip back then. The boats were ALWAYS full. I am not so sure now & one of the reasons UE-UK folded was lack of OC divers.

[Bardo]

Originally Posted by And

Hi

Incidentally, what is the scrubber duration for ouroborus? It doesn't say on the website.

Andy

Rather than misrepresent the figures, I thought it best just to cut 'n' paste the relevant section of text directly from the Boris manual...

"At 40m of depth, with air as a diluent at 4 degrees centigrade water temperature with a CO2 injection rate of 1.6l/minute and a ventilation (breathing rate) of 40l/min and a 2.7kg absorbent load of Sofnolime 797, the unit will last 154 minutes. At 15m this increases to 210 minutes. At 100m with Heliox the duration is 90 minutes.

Tests conclude that depth and hence gas density; temperature and CO2 generation all massively affect absorbent duration. The Ouroboros rebreather employs a highly efficient radial canister design which not only gives greatly extended durations when compared to axial designs employing a similar absorbent load, but it is less affected by the commonly experienced high loss of efficiency associated with increased depth.

This is obviously an extreme test and axial canister designs, which use a comparable load of absorbent, have been found in trials to be generally 20% less efficient."

If anyone is interested, the Ouroborus manual can be downloaded here... Boris Manual.pdf

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Janos

Mark, I've been mostly agreeing with you all the way (except when you're inlcuding the cost of the reserve when my shop will deduct that off) but now I must ask you to step outside

I really enjoy diving the KISS. I'm now happier on it than I was OC. Sometimes it is a bit of a pain to clean and to prep for the next day, but I quite enjoy kit faffing, and I like getting it just right. Plus it's warm and it's quiet.

Since diving the RB, I now come up because I've run out of wreck. On OC, it was because of gas limitations. This is a really novel experience for me.

True it is trying to kill me. But I look at that as a minor inconvenience.

Janos (Ripe for a fall...)

PS - Although I must admit that the first dive I did after passing my CCR mix course was a single tank dive to 30m on the Skye from the club rhib. [1]. And I loved it.



[1] - Just to piss ChrisCh off. I'd spell it rib usually...

You know what i have been giving this serious thaught for about an hour now and i have concluded that two things are true.

If I quit deep diving CCR at age 45 and go back OC it will be as a DIR diver

If I dont quit CCR and stay buble free i reckon ill switch to a KISS.

ATB

Mark Chase

[jamesp]

Borris might be nice, if you can afford the price tag. as goes for all the units.

I was doing garage fills using the works gas account so even dodging the vat, I was struggling to get Clares prices.

The crunch for me (with a sac of 18) was bigger tanks as 12`s were not giving me the reserves for oops moments, and this was not even getting to 60m. I worked out it was easier to carry the bailout from 60m than the back gas. So i bought a second hand YBOD for £2200. Not exactly stupid money, and a hell of a lot less than a new borris, the diving has slowed down a bit while i get up to speed with Bod, but I reckon it is allready not costing any more than my oc diving, and starting to save me money(yes at the moment I use it for everything, shallow and shallower..) Though IIRC back in April when i dived the salsette the dir contingent were using twins of 18/40, even if the tanks did both days, i managed 2 scrubber fills at £9 each(one per day, i`m cautious), and about £25 of o2, 18/40dil, which lasted for four dives.
The Ybod has tried to kill me once, but i dont recall the 52m freeflow being much fun on OC either.

The cost of the YBOD lets me afford to do the diving I would like to, I do not have the financial resources to blow He bubles from 50+m.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Dave R

Not really Mark. Up until recently DIR_UK was very much an 'invite only' group and discussions were kept 'in-house'. This was largely because people couldn't be arsed with all the BS outside of DIR and trips could be organised for like-minded divers.

6-7 years ago we were doing 70m+ dives. The difference between then and now is the internet and the ability to post trip reports easily. I think there is now a greater acceptance of DIR and a lot of hostility has dissapeared since the 'techdiver-days' of DIR. There was a waiting/reserves list of at least 3 divers per trip back then. The boats were ALWAYS full. I am not so sure now & one of the reasons UE-UK folded was lack of OC divers.

I met John Thraves and Paul Dawkins on a trip last year. They were both on CCR YBOD I was told they were Ex UK DIR.

It was amusing to see a one piece harnes on a YBOD

ATB

Mark Chase

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I met John Thraves and Paul Dawkins on a trip last year. They were both on CCR YBOD I was told they were Ex UK DIR.

It was amusing to see a one piece harnes on a YBOD

Indeed & John was a very active DIR diver. There seems to be 3 courses of action for DIR divers -
1) Retire from diving ( a lot have done this unfortunately )
2) Go CCR
3) Carry on with OC

In category 3 there are only a handful of divers from 2000 era.

I get the p155 taken for having all my stages on 1 side