The Great Rebreather Crash of 2005

[Rob Evans]

Originally Posted by Adrian Kelland

Classic cars, Antiques anyone?

Devaluation or any value at all only matters if you want to sell or buy. If you don't want to sell your kit, does the value matter (apart from insurance) ?

If older model users are happy diving the models they have, then they don't need to spend more on new electronics either.

Adrian

Sums it up for me. My old shed of a Classic (6yrs old) works just as well as a new Classic cos I look after it. I've got a HUD and a VR3, and the temp stick doesn't justify all that dollar for Vision leccies.
Mine ain't broke, so I don't have to fix it. And I don't give a flying bollock what its re-sale value is cos I ain't gonna sell it until something substantially better comes along.

[Spike Jackson]

Originally Posted by Drmike

Oh good grief - somone else that cant read.

I never suggested "EVERYBODY who tries to buy a rebreather without prior formal training [snip] is an idiot" so please stop misquoting me

I suggested someone who dived a rebreather without prior formal training is an idiot, AND that this is more likely to happen if we don't self regulate.

As you don't even dive a rebreather or done any courses on one excuse me if I don't hold your opinion on rebreather safety and training in very high esteem.

Mate you know sweet blow all about me. you can stick my opinions wherever the hell you please.

[Diving Dude]

Originally Posted by Drmike

...............
As you don't even dive a rebreather or done any courses on one excuse me if I don't hold your opinion on rebreather safety and training in very high esteem.

Bummer, l was going to post my opinion on this thread but because l don't own or dive a RB my opinion will obviously be valueless.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

<snip>The scrubber on the Vision is the same size as the scrubber on the Inspiration Classic but with the temp stick you can officially run it past the 3-hour limit.

</snip>

Is this truly "official"? are APD willing to stand by what the temp stick says irrespective of the CE testing?

Ian

[jknights]

To put the training of divers (OC or SCR/CCR) into context I feel somewhat agrieved by some of the comment which encourages a thought process of once you are trained you are perfect and failure proofed. This is b******s.

Also I object strongly to being told by a manufacturer or individual that a unit I purchase with my money cannot be delivered to me until after I have been trained. If I want to be 'stupid' or 'idiotic' then that is my perogative, even to the point of killing myself.

As soon to be trained SCR diver I have no problem about wanting to do the training.
As an OC diver of 15 years experience, 10 years of which being a BSAC instructor I would say that some of the best and worst divers I have dived with are those that have been trained formally by BSAC and/or PADI. I'm not a perfect diver and have never claimed to be but I am very concerned about the safety of my buddy (where present) and myself. Yes, I do solo-dive and it is safe if done within strict guidelines (note not laws/rules), namely follow the plan, use an SMB and always have shore/boat cover.

I have also had the pleasure of diving with some of the old originals who had absolutely no formal training.

Can I ask some of the other contributors how the likes of Jacques Cousteau, Hans Hass and Rob Palmer, to mention a few, managed to become legendary divers, when they were the first and were therefore untrained. They had no formal training only a careful consideration of what was prudent and what risk-management to adopt.

Can I relay a saying that rings true in life "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the absolute obeyance of fools". Choose which camp you belong to ;-)

Boy, oh boy, off soap box now. No personal offense to anybody I hope.
Happy diving all.

[Juz]

Originally Posted by jknights

To put the training of divers (OC or SCR/CCR) into context I feel somewhat agrieved by some of the comment which encourages a thought process of once you are trained you are perfect and failure proofed. This is b******s.

Also I object strongly to being told by a manufacturer or individual that a unit I purchase with my money cannot be delivered to me until after I have been trained. If I want to be 'stupid' or 'idiotic' then that is my perogative, even to the point of killing myself.

As soon to be trained SCR diver I have no problem about wanting to do the training.
As an OC diver of 15 years experience, 10 years of which being a BSAC instructor I would say that some of the best and worst divers I have dived with are those that have been trained formally by BSAC and/or PADI. I'm not a perfect diver and have never claimed to be but I am very concerned about the safety of my buddy (where present) and myself. Yes, I do solo-dive and it is safe if done within strict guidelines (note not laws/rules), namely follow the plan, use an SMB and always have shore/boat cover.

I have also had the pleasure of diving with some of the old originals who had absolutely no formal training.

Can I ask some of the other contributors how the likes of Jacques Cousteau, Hans Hass and Rob Palmer, to mention a few, managed to become legendary divers, when they were the first and were therefore untrained. They had no formal training only a careful consideration of what was prudent and what risk-management to adopt.

Can I relay a saying that rings true in life "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the absolute obeyance of fools". Choose which camp you belong to ;-)

Boy, oh boy, off soap box now. No personal offense to anybody I hope.
Happy diving all.

Well put!

Juz

[divetheworld]

Originally Posted by jknights

To put the training of divers (OC or SCR/CCR) into context I feel somewhat agrieved by some of the comment which encourages a thought process of once you are trained you are perfect and failure proofed. This is b******s.

Also I object strongly to being told by a manufacturer or individual that a unit I purchase with my money cannot be delivered to me until after I have been trained. If I want to be 'stupid' or 'idiotic' then that is my perogative, even to the point of killing myself.

As soon to be trained SCR diver I have no problem about wanting to do the training.
As an OC diver of 15 years experience, 10 years of which being a BSAC instructor I would say that some of the best and worst divers I have dived with are those that have been trained formally by BSAC and/or PADI. I'm not a perfect diver and have never claimed to be but I am very concerned about the safety of my buddy (where present) and myself. Yes, I do solo-dive and it is safe if done within strict guidelines (note not laws/rules), namely follow the plan, use an SMB and always have shore/boat cover.

I have also had the pleasure of diving with some of the old originals who had absolutely no formal training.

Can I ask some of the other contributors how the likes of Jacques Cousteau, Hans Hass and Rob Palmer, to mention a few, managed to become legendary divers, when they were the first and were therefore untrained. They had no formal training only a careful consideration of what was prudent and what risk-management to adopt.

Can I relay a saying that rings true in life "Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the absolute obeyance of fools". Choose which camp you belong to ;-)

Boy, oh boy, off soap box now. No personal offense to anybody I hope.
Happy diving all.

Excellently articulated my good chap. May green blobs abundantly fall upon you.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by iani

Is this truly "official"? are APD willing to stand by what the temp stick says irrespective of the CE testing?

It is not 'official.'

I asked MP (and a few other people at the AP stand) at the Dive Show about this and they said that the scrubber duration for the Evo with or without the temp stick was rated at 2 hours. I left with the impression that you could use the temp stick to push it beyond this, but when asked out right if you could do this they told me to change the scrubber after 2 hours.

I presume it's the same with the insp (but three hours not two)

Janos

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by Spike Jackson

Mate you know sweet blow all about me. you can stick my opinions wherever the hell you please.

I know enough - clearly.

[Drmike]

Originally Posted by jknights

To put the training of divers (OC or SCR/CCR) into context I feel somewhat agrieved by some of the comment which encourages a thought process of once you are trained you are perfect and failure proofed. This is b******s.

Now Im confused - You may be right - you may be wrong but from what I see nobody said that in this thread. What comment are you talking about that suggested anything about this? Where does this come from? Where is the evidence of this 'thought process' outside of this thread? and more importantly what the heck does this have to with weather or not we should self regulate to ensure a purchaser has at least a basic understanding of ccr diving before selling them a unit?

Also I object strongly to being told by a manufacturer or individual that a unit I purchase with my money cannot be delivered to me until after I have been trained. If I want to be 'stupid' or 'idiotic' then that is my prerogative, even to the point of killing myself.

You ave the right to feel however you want - the manufacturer of a product has the right to protect the reputation of his product by attempting to ensure people are trained in its safe use before usage. You have the right to feel however you want - a seller has the right to feel a civic responsibility.

As soon to be trained SCR diver I have no problem about wanting to do the training.
As an OC diver of 15 years experience, 10 years of which being a BSAC instructor I would say that some of the best and worst divers I have dived with are those that have been trained formally by BSAC and/or PADI. I'm not a perfect diver and have never claimed to be but I am very concerned about the safety of my buddy (where present) and myself. Yes, I do solo-dive and it is safe if done within strict guidelines (note not laws/rules), namely follow the plan, use an SMB and always have shore/boat cover.

I have also had the pleasure of diving with some of the old originals who had absolutely no formal training.

Can I ask some of the other contributors how the likes of Jacques Cousteau, Hans Hass and Rob Palmer, to mention a few, managed to become legendary divers, when they were the first and were therefore untrained. They had no formal training only a careful consideration of what was prudent and what risk-management to adopt.

Risk management?? Risk management?? How does someone who has just bought a ccr and had no training on it risk manage?? IN ORDER TO MANAGE RISK ONE NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF THAT RISK. If people are able to buy and dive ccrs without formal training then they will not understand the nature of the risk. Your analogy - isnt.

I fail to see the relevance in ANY of what you wrote above. Anyone can point to specific cases as you have where the self regulation is uncalled for or oppressive - however these are specific cases and we are talking about general cases. Specifically an 'old boy' or a home builder etc such as some who have posted here it may be totally unnecessary for them to do a formal training course - But generally speaking for the general diving community this is not true. Guidelines, rules, regulations are developed for the masses - as one big generalization. Nobody (especially a busy manufacturer) is going to want to individualy assess everyone and everything in a subjective case by case manner - its unpractical and unreaistic for anyone to think or expect they would. Surely as a home builder or self trained this is something you just have to accept as a price to pay not following the norm? What do you suggest as a practical alternative?


To all,

Im getting very confused here - are you saying that we should just sell units to anyone regardless of certs or not? Are you saying sellers should interview and assess each potential purchasers diving ability and ccr knowledge and skills one on one before agreeing to a sale? What critera do they use? How do we ensure its not subjective? Just what are you saying because threes what 20 dead ccr divers and counting who WERE trained and it sounds to me like some of you want to relax or de-formalize training/certification requirements and make it a subjective assesment by a seller instead???

Its funny how most of the vocal ones here arent even ccr divers. Perhaps you underestimate how easily and quickly these things can kill the untrained.

Jump in the water on OC with no training you are FAR more likely to survive than on CCR which can kill you in far more insideous ways with NO warning (just fall asleep and die - or convulse and die - no warning. The same is not true of OC. I suspect you OC divers spouting off here are not really aware of the difference.

Some of the exceptions here like homebuilders or old boys represent probably less the 5% of the ccr community - we are talking about the general public, the remaining 95%.

We have a self imposed protocal of requesting proof of training or course booking prior to private sale. It may not be perfect and some of that 5% or so may be inconvenienced by those that dont personaly know them and their experience/ability - PLEASE - IF YOU HAVE A BETTER PROTOCAL SUGGEST IT HERE - I FOR ONE SUPORT ANYTHING THAT MAKES CCR DIVING SAFER OR MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THE ABLE...well?