Questions, Questions so many Questions

[Aquaman]

So Chaps,

I have been out of diving for the past couple of years, I have no kit to mention and I want to get back into it all. I am however intrigued with the world of Closed Circuit but I have some questions as this is a serious purchase . So if you will permit I will dive straight on in, every pun inteneded

I was thinking of the affectionately titled YBOD, only due to is publicity and that’s what the vast majority of CCR divers seem to use, is this a sensible choice or am I being a sheep?

Is there anyone out there offering try dives on the unit? As I would not want to buy one and then find I don’t like diving with the unit.

What are the ongoing running costs of the unit?

What other standard equipment will I need that are not OC standard?

How many divers out there are using rebreaters? Are buddies available?

What are the associated problems of longer dives in both UK waters and warmer waters?

Training, I live in West Berkshire (Lambourn/Hungerford) who would you recommend for training on the unit?

Clubs, are there any CCR clubs or is it a case of trips through YD (Excellent org by the way)

Any other hints tips advice would be more than welcome

Also on my route back in to diving, I have AOW and Nitrox ticket. I completed just over 60 dives, in UK and warm waters, before the rugrat new job etc forced me into the diving wilderness. I was thinking of doing a Scuba tune up and then getting skills back and then gradually building my confidence up on OC before heading down the CCR route.

Well I think that about covers it all, sorry for the flood of questions but if I never ask I will never know.

Thanks in advance

Chris

[turbanator]

I'm at a similar stage to you re the 'breather, but a little further on, ie itching to order.
So mine is not even a novice user perspective as I've only used an Inspiration once (to 4m).

1) the Inspriration seems to be a good piece of kit, there were fatalities early on, but I think that a lot were due to experienced OC divers assuming that they could strap the thing on and jump into depths that they were used to, definatly a no-no IMO.
You'd not be a sheep to buy one, but have a look at others first - persoanally I like the KISS and that's probably what I'll go for, possibly sheepy in my case, because strangly I know more KIS divers than Inspiration ones.

2) BSAC do a RB aquaint course where you get to see and (I would hope) dive on several diiferent types - it's mainly aimed at people like ourselves who are considering and RB or those that may be buddying up with a RB diver.

3) Ongoing costs are O2 sensors, sofnolime, gas, cleaning, servicing.
It's hard to put anuual figures on these because it depends how much you dive. However, everyone that I've spoken to seem to think that you'll never make back the cost of the unit in saved gas costs, but you will probaly find that you will user helium for shallower dives that you would on OC.

4) Other equipment - many people seem to go for a VR3 computer, not sure if I will, but this can cost up to 700 quid, although gas is usually available, some people keep OC cylinders to decant from, others also go for a booster pump.

5) Longer dives mean greater thermal exposure, and also bladder capacity problems. The latter can be solved with nappies or overboard discharges, the former buy undersuits, argon inflation etc .

6) Clubs - The BS-AC (I'm a BS-AC diver, so can't speak for the others) have sanctioned the use of the Inspiration, Kiss, Drager, with some restrictions.

I'm sure some of the others will reply too, espcially those who actually own the units, but I hope that this is usefull even though it's from a non-owner.

Myself, I'd love to see someone prove me wrong about the running costs, as that would make justifying the cost of one to the misssus so much easier.

Best
Paul

[nigelH]

Originally Posted by Aquaman

I was thinking of the affectionately titled YBOD, only due to is publicity and that’s what the vast majority of CCR divers seem to use, is this a sensible choice or am I being a sheep?

There are thousands of them. Literally. They outnumber the rest total and they're actually quite good. There are lots of changes and we users argue as to which are improvements and which are tweaking for the heck of it but that's dive kit anyway.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

Is there anyone out there offering try dives on the unit? As I would not want to buy one and then find I don’t like diving with the unit.

Frank, who used to be at Wittering Divers, was doing them at Vobster but I'm not sure what the arrangement was and I think he has set up to do technical training now so things have changed. Bound to be somebody who will take your money. However this is like being offered cheap crack.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

What are the ongoing running costs of the unit?

You use very little gas but you want pure oxygen so for some people that commits them to quite a drive and then they discover the shop only has 120bar in the cascade and they already has 110 in the 3L tank. The Sofnolime is about eight quid a fill and although it does three hours your dive schedule always means you chuck it out early. The cleaning glop isn't expensive but you do need to do it.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

What other standard equipment will I need that are not OC standard?

It's mostly built in. However you do want to carry a DSMB on a lot of dives where you wouldn't normally bother because you are not making bubbles so you don't want to surface just where the boat is going to pick up the others. A self inflater helps as you would have to fill it from the AutoAir and most of us feel that is a bad move.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

How many divers out there are using rebreaters? Are buddies available?

Hordes of us. If you look at the diving press most articles on a 'technical' site you see the white flash of the Inspiration mouthpiece in the face of some of the divers. It was once heroics but not it's just mainstream. Most of us who dive them tend to use them for everything so a splash in the local puddle is CCR.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

What are the associated problems of longer dives in both UK waters and warmer waters?

I find less problems. I'm warmer because I'm breathing warm air. The only problem in warmer waters is making sure you can get the supplies you need. In fact the biggest problem is the I do do longer dives. I hang stages on for backup diving deep and long but they are just backup - the whole dive and the deco is all done on the rebreather's 3L tanks. Diluent at 40bar a dive and Oxygen at about 30bar an hour + messing about.

Originally Posted by Aquaman

Clubs, are there any CCR clubs or is it a case of trips through YD (Excellent org by the way)

My BSAC club has several rebreathers. It's just dive gear. Until I started hanging torches and argon bottles on it it was lighter than a twinset.

I think they're magic. You'll see we argue details here but I doubt any of us would consider changing back.

nigelH

[NotDeadYet]

First of all, if you have been out of diving a while then make sure you will definitely get back into it. A rebreather is a big investment both in time and money. That said, you should easily be able to sell it on for close to what you paid, but you will never get training costs back.

I'm probably going to get a load of red blobbies for this, but I'd say 60 dives isn't a lot of experience, especially when looking at RBs. My own view of RB diving (fair enough, mostly obtained from units I've built myself) is that they have a much bigger "faff" factor than OC (i.e. loads more faffing around to get in the water). You also require a hell of a lot more discipline than OC, you need to stay on top of them or they will kill you, simple as that. All rebreathers, even commercially made ones (maybe even especially commercially made ones?).

Make sure you need a rebreather too. You might want one but do you need one? Are you doing a lot of trimix (I don't get the impression you are) and/or deep diving? Or verrrrry long dives? You need to ask yourself if you can do your diving easier/cheaper/safer on open-circuit.

Some might recommend getting a Draeger Dolphin or Ray if all your are doing is single tank stuff. Again, if you can use a single tank then use it, I don't see the point of a RB for this kind of diving. Nitrox isn't expensive if you want more O2.

As for RB choices, there are tonnes of the buggers. KISS, Meg, Prism, etc. If I was to buy a commercially made RB I would buy a KISS www.jetsam.ca in fact I very nearly did (homebuilding was just too much fun to stop). It is simple but the downside is that I am not sure there are easily accessible training courses in the UK (could be wrong though). The Insp. has many instructors and you could do worse than talk to Andy Hayhurst at Dalesdiver. It is an excellent rebreather if used properly. Downside, it has to be used properly. It has had quite a few fatalaties and AFAIK none have been due to equipment failure. That would tend to imply that you need to be paying attention to what is happening (applies to all rebreathers) and you need to be sure that you are capable.

I hope you don't take this is knocking your abilities or of any rebreather's, that's not my intention. Just my view from the neutral stand of using a RB I built myself.

As for buddies, there are about 2000 Inspirations in use, with a big chunk of that in the UK. I think RBs are even getting accepted for club use (Digger's is not included!).

Long dives in the UK... why???? Are you mad?

Like I said, the big decision is whether or not you need one enough to make the wealth/health gamble?

Cheers,

Stuart

[Mark Chase]

I have done a LOT of research and two try dives on the unit so having made clear my lack of experience......

I was thinking of the affectionately titled YBOD, only due to is publicity and that’s what the vast majority of CCR divers seem to use, is this a sensible choice or am I being a sheep?

YBOD has issues but it’s a tried and tested unit with parts and back up readily available in the UK. It is the obvious choice for the UK market but the advantages in safety of the KISS and the Prism are worth looking at IMHO. If you can live (pun intended) with the lulling you into a false sense of security type issues and voting logic of a YBOD it’s the most cost effective unit on the market. Second hand units are readily available thus allowing a try before you invest big money option.

Is there anyone out there offering try dives on the unit? As I would not want to buy one and then find I don’t like diving with the unit.

Paul R Marks will do a try dive at Wraysbury 07860 239332
www. Aquanaut.org.uk

What are the ongoing running costs of the unit?

Sensors should be replaced once a year (bout £180) Slyme costs about £3.00 a fill for three hours diving. That said keep in touch because we are getting a group together to get a pallet load of 20kg tubs, which will reduce the cost significantly.

What other standard equipment will I need that are not OC standard?

Arguably a partial pressure decompression computer. Buddy Nexus or VR3 or VR2 (Nitrox only on VR2)

How many divers out there are using rebreaters? Are buddies available?

Shed loads and Andyp and I are getting our units today and we are in your patch so to speak so will be doing the training and all the bimble dives in the next 6 to 12 months. Wraysbury will be a hot location for a while.

What are the associated problems of longer dives in both UK waters and warmer waters?

That’s totally up to you. You don’t have to dive long on a YBOD. Obviously in water hydration pee valves nappies and good thermal protection are considerations.

Training, I live in West Berkshire (Lambourn/Hungerford) who would you recommend for training on the unit?

See above or talk to Andy Hayhurst. Paul is based in High Wycombe.

Clubs, are there any CCR clubs or is it a case of trips through YD (Excellent org by the way)

There are rebreather groups and the internet s the best place to organise CCR dive trips. That said there is no reason to avoid OC dives as long as you have a buddy.

Any other hints tips advice would be more than welcome

I will let you know when I know

Also on my route back in to diving, I have AOW and Nitrox ticket. I completed just over 60 dives, in UK and warm waters, before the rugrat new job etc forced me into the diving wilderness. I was thinking of doing a Scuba tune up and then getting skills back and then gradually building my confidence up on OC before heading down the CCR route.

If your totally happy in the water (ie not nervous in any way) I dont see why you should bother. I consider my self a confident and competent OC diver who (normally) does about 100 dives a year and whose buoyancy is capable of doing deco and holding shallow and long stops accurately, but as soon as I put the YBOD on my back I was reduced to a Muppet with the buoyancy skills of an OW student during their first pool session.

Hope this helps


ATB

Mark Chase

[Brass Monkey]

Started to reply but everyone else got there first. You won’t get much better advice than already given. As already said, do your research and know the real reasons why you want one, be honest with yourself it can save a lot of money.





Dave.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Brass Monkey

Is this a troll?

If it is its not a very good one. I see no reason apart form cost why someone shouldn’t go straight into CCR diving and avoid OC all together so a person with 60 dives?? Why not? Some instructors point out its the over confidence and bad habits of experienced OC divers getting on the box that result in fatalities.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

If it is its not a very good one. I see no reason apart form cost why someone shouldn’t go straight into CCR diving and avoid OC all together so a person with 60 dives?? Why not? Some instructors point out its the over confidence and bad habits of experienced OC divers getting on the box that result in fatalities.

ATB

Mark Chase

I agree with you Mark, there is no reason why someone should not take this route. In fact I think that in the future people will do exactly that. Lets face it most of us make a right tit out of ourselves when we first dive RB, and most of that is down to OC buoyancy techniques. That's why I edited my post. I had typed out a long reply but took that long all you guys got in there first. It was just the line about "scuba tune up" that got me thinking this guy might be taking the piss. Let's face it though Mark most of us did a lot of research before even considering the CCR thing. Looks like this is the start of his research.


Dave.

[Padowan]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

... Sofnolime costs about £3.00 a fill for three hours diving....

Where are you getting lime for this price???

On point about experience and switching to CCR that I would argue, is that open circuit experience does not count for a lot when moving to CC, EXCEPT that it will improve your confidence in the water, and perhaps you'll have more knowledge (which is power) for possible in-water troubleshooting.

You will need to relearn bouyancy control, you will have new pre dive checks to perform, you will check different thing during the dive, you will breathe differently - these are all fundamental RB and OC skills which IMO, would probably be more easily learned by someone new, or someone with less OC experience. The caveat to this is that there is a lot of in depth theoretical understanding about gas physics and physiology that you need to understand to safely troubleshoot which normally only comes with experience....

Completely agree on the point of asking "Why do I want a RB?". I had a number of reasons - lots of extended range and trimix diving will eventually offer big cost savings, and for the more pedestrian stuff the deco benefits of an optimum infinitely flexible nitrox blend at all times is great. The convenience of a well prepared unit offering a weekend of your average diving without worrying about air fills and lugging twinsets about is also a factor. But I'm also the first to admit that I'm also a bit of a kit junkie, and as such also think it's a great toy/tool (delete as applicable)

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by Padowan

Completely agree on the point of asking "Why do I want a RB?". I had a number of reasons - lots of extended range and trimix diving will eventually offer big cost savings, and for the more pedestrian stuff the deco benefits of an optimum infinitely flexible nitrox blend at all times is great. The convenience of a well prepared unit offering a weekend of your average diving without worrying about air fills and lugging twinsets about is also a factor. But I'm also the first to admit that I'm also a bit of a kit junkie, and as such also think it's a great toy/tool (delete as applicable)

Same reasons I was drawn to the dark side, but the trimix is a while away yet so I'm still in the stage of constantly forking out for other bits of kit to support the box or slighly modify it to suit my needs. The dreaded booster pump purchase looms on the horizon! As for being a kit junkie, I've been in rehab for this twice already. I can make a coke habbit look like a sensible option.


Dave.