The Great Rebreather Crash of 2005

[Rob Evans]

Just to throw another curve in - I bought my unit S/H and untrained from a guy I didn't know.
He took it on trust that I was going to do Mod1 before diving it, cos I'd read up thoroughly on the unit's operation and showed him a healthy respect for the thing's potential lethality.
He wouldn't have sold it to me if he hadn't been reasonably secure in the knowledge I was going to do the course - however, I could've been lying my arse off..

[Mark Chase]

To all,

Im getting very confused here - are you saying that we should just sell units to anyone regardless of certs or not? Are you saying sellers should interview and assess each potential purchasers diving ability and ccr knowledge and skills one on one before agreeing to a sale? What critera do they use? How do we ensure its not subjective? Just what are you saying because threes what 20 dead ccr divers and counting who WERE trained and it sounds to me like some of you want to relax or de-formalize training/certification requirements and make it a subjective assesment by a seller instead???

I reckon anyone spending 2.5 -3K on a unit should be willing to to drive and have a look at it. so i would leave it in bits and ask them to put it together If not then a few questions over the phone would sufice. Like How do you change set point during a dive and what screens will you scrole through?

As regularly demoenstrated on these boards I have a fairley strong jump in the water and figure it out on the way down kind of attitude to diving but I fail to see how anyone without some form of mentoring or training could operate a CCR. The manual is good but not that good.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Drmike]

I reckon anyone spending 2.5 -3K on a unit should be willing to to drive and have a look at it. so i would leave it in bits and ask them to put it together If not then a few questions over the phone would sufice. Like How do you change set point during a dive and what screens will you scrole through?

As regularly demoenstrated on these boards I have a fairley strong jump in the water and figure it out on the way down kind of attitude to diving but I fail to see how anyone without some form of mentoring or training could operate a CCR. The manual is good but not that good.

ATB

Mark Chase

I know a guy who bought a unit - didnt do any training and thought hed try and see what CO2 hit felt like before diving it. He wasnt completely stupid and did it in his living room wearing the unit with no scrubber fill and breathing it whilst whatching TV!. He almost died because he had no idea how they worked and he thought turning the O2 off would cause CO2!!!!. Ater a few moments the loop went hipoxic - he luckily spat out the loop as he was dieing and survived - Just.

stupid? yes - but he didnt know any better - and thats the point.

[Odin]

I dived Nitrox without a ticket - went on to do the courses and ended up as an ERD instructor.

I dived Trimix without a ticket - in the company of a very experienced Trimix diver.
Not for me at that stage.

I did a try-a -dive on an Inspiration a couple of years ago - very intersted, but not the unit for me. Although I could probably of bought one without the ticket!

I am currently doing MOD 1 on an Evolution.

I like to think I know the risks I should and shouldn't take - although like everyone else I will get it wrong at some point!

There is NO WAY I would dive a Rebreather without formal training.

On O/C I am a First Class Trainee (always learning)

On CCR I am at the bottom of the learning curve, expecting to spike to the top in 10 hours and then go into negative equity for another 150 hours!

I know of people that dive CCR without training. I know of people on O/C without training. They will not be my buddy!

Paul

[db8us]

I think we should strongly distinguish between "formal training" which to me means by an "agency" and is usually leading to a "certification" and "training", which could be done together with more experienced divers or later even with the normal buddy.

From what i can see here in Europe there are MANY instructors who do really do shortcuts and "cross" their way up to an Instructor-Trainer.
With less than 100hours they become an IT and they honestly have no clue neither experience beyond "training dives".
IMHO i expect from an instructor that he/she has more capability on a unit than the average Joe diver and i am seeking training to lear something and not get a "card".

I met a Trimix diver here a few years ago on his FIRST Mixdive after his ANDI-vert and half a year later he was an Instructor for Trimix and the Inspiration. He has a normal job and a few months later he was an IT for everything.
They do nothing but dives that could be done with a D12 or D16 and NO dive where a breather would be even required.
Where should the xperience come from ?

Ok, the user ist stupid if he does not question the instructors abilities, but normally a user always thinks his instructor was good until he aquired more knowledge and saw other people and then realized he has been ripped off.

I am happy to have the opportunity to dive with a lot of people and i am happy that usually they are better then me, so i can learn from them. This does not get me a certification, but all these people dive way beyond the average IT anyway.

So what is my point?
People should question the diving-career of EVERYONE who wants to tell them soemthing and people should always try to get in the water with better divers, even though they might look stupid then.
Then learning-curve never ends.

For breatherdivers i suggest more "informal" training, like in a pool, then in local waters and also a theory brushup and exams,etc.
We do that yearly within our team and no, i am not breather certified :-)

[divetheworld]

This is without doubt, one of the best debates I've seen in a long time here.

Mike,
A well structured argument, may I respond in part.

I fail to see the relevance in ANY of what you wrote above. Anyone can point to specific cases as you have where the self regulation is uncalled for or oppressive - however these are specific cases and we are talking about general cases. Specifically an 'old boy' or a home builder etc such as some who have posted here it may be totally unnecessary for them to do a formal training course - But generally speaking for the general diving community this is not true. Guidelines, rules, regulations are developed for the masses - as one big generalization.

Sounds about right. And what else can they/we do? It may not suit us all, but where do you draw the line.
Although it would suit me well, I suppose Mike is right in the fact that we cant expect one rule for one etc.

Nobody (especially a busy manufacturer) is going to want to individualy assess everyone and everything in a subjective case by case manner - its unpractical and unreaistic for anyone to think or expect they would. Surely as a home builder or self trained this is something you just have to accept as a price to pay not following the norm? What do you suggest as a practical alternative?

A fair point. I would like to know, that if you were a seller of parts for CCR's and I asked you for a critical component, how would you respond to me? Last resort, if I asked you to get me a part because I was having difficulty, would you refuse to help? Probably not. Rhetorical if you wish.
Most people outside of the manufacturers are pretty reasonable people.
It may take some time and effort but I manage sooner or later.
My local LDS does not deal in RB parts, but they opened an account so they could supply me as they understand my problems and have known me for many many years.

To all,

Im getting very confused here - are you saying that we should just sell units to anyone regardless of certs or not? Are you saying sellers should interview and assess each potential purchasers diving ability and ccr knowledge and skills one on one before agreeing to a sale? What critera do they use? How do we ensure its not subjective? Just what are you saying because threes what 20 dead ccr divers and counting who WERE trained and it sounds to me like some of you want to relax or de-formalize training/certification requirements and make it a subjective assesment by a seller instead????

I would probably respond in that it is the sellers/resellers decision how he disposes of his used CCR, and nothing to do with anyone else. Ask what you want, whether it be a cert, enrollment in a course or just assurances that you are going to get suitable instruction. Some posts after yours suggest that people should interview and assess each potential purchasers diving ability and ccr knowledge and skills one on one before agreeing to a sale. thats their decision.
I just wished that each time I go on a commercial diving boat that I dont have to explain myself over and over, or worry about geting refused divng because of my rig. holidays can be a pain. I wish I didnt have to skulk around like a bad boy all the time, and this is why this subject is so active for me.
A bit of reason rather than a "black or white" cert or no sale.
A door that swings both ways, so to speak.

Its funny how most of the vocal ones here arent even ccr divers. Perhaps you underestimate how easily and quickly these things can kill the untrained.

Jump in the water on OC with no training you are FAR more likely to survive than on CCR which can kill you in far more insideous ways with NO warning (just fall asleep and die - or convulse and die - no warning. The same is not true of OC. I suspect you OC divers spouting off here are not really aware of the difference.

Some of the exceptions here like homebuilders or old boys represent probably less the 5% of the ccr community - we are talking about the general public, the remaining 95%.

We have a self imposed protocal of requesting proof of training or course booking prior to private sale. It may not be perfect and some of that 5% or so may be inconvenienced by those that dont personaly know them and their experience/ability - PLEASE - IF YOU HAVE A BETTER PROTOCAL SUGGEST IT HERE - I FOR ONE SUPORT ANYTHING THAT MAKES CCR DIVING SAFER OR MORE ACCESSIBLE TO THE ABLE...well?

Well, I would like to step up to the line here.
I agree with a great deal of your logic, not completely mind you, but a great deal. Suggestions;
I can produce dive logs that pre-date training courses existence for my equipment. How about a universal acceptance of "grandfather rights".
Training could also be based on an 'appreticeship' system rather than a quick four day £400 experience. NVQish I suppose. No I hav'nt though out all the details, but I'm sure you see the potential for a good system.

I know of people that dive CCR without training. I know of people on O/C without training. They will not be my buddy!

Paul

Generally speaking? If so, I would comment that this would be narrow minded of you.
Perhaps I am missing a point or quoting out of context.

[Drmike]

My comments previously were directed only at new divers buying a unit and not at 'old boys' or home builds, and not about the validity or importance of self/mentor teaching/experience.

But to follow db8us comments If Im diving with someone I dont give a rats ass what paper qualifications they has - If Im on the same boat as them Im far more interested in their abilities and skills cos I dont want to end up having to drag their body back and miss dives - or worse they cause me to have problems

I have seen guys with all the gear and all the certs who couldnt dive for shit, and Ive seen the guys with nothing who can. I know a YBOD instructor who I wouldnt dive with if hes on CCR because he hasnt got a clue. I also know some very good Instructors

What does this mean? Not a lot. Worlds a big place everyones different - so lets generalise -cert anyone?

(Divetheworld I fully appreciate your frustration which is one of the reasons I never continued with homebuild. My plan was to put it all inside a YBOD cover to try to get around the boat operator issue )

[Decodiver]

As always everyone is entitled to their point of view.

What Dr Mike is saying, I guess, and on this I fully agree, is that if by self-imposing criteria, we stop just one person from killing themselves unnecessarily, then it is a good idea.

I don't like being told what I can or cannot do, others have expressed a similar dislike on this thread.

Examples have been given of people who bought units pre-certification without haphazard. Fortunately for them, and by extension, all CCR divers, they were sensible enough to refrain from diving and their self-discipline I applaud.

Unfortunately not everyone is self-disciplined and if our criteria stops a family having to bury just one dead diver, then it is just.

Just my Euro two cents worth on my return from a succesful 2 weeks diving in France.

cheers

Dave Cooper

[divetheworld]

My comments previously were directed only at new divers buying a unit and not at 'old boys' or home builds, and not about the validity or importance of self/mentor teaching/experience.

But to follow db8us comments If Im diving with someone I dont give a rats ass what paper qualifications they has - If Im on the same boat as them Im far more interested in their abilities and skills cos I dont want to end up having to drag their body back and miss dives - or worse they cause me to have problems

I have seen guys with all the gear and all the certs who couldnt dive for shit, and Ive seen the guys with nothing who can. I know a YBOD instructor who I wouldnt dive with if hes on CCR because he hasnt got a clue. I also know some very good Instructors

What does this mean? Not a lot. Worlds a big place everyones different - so lets generalise -cert anyone?

(Divetheworld I fully appreciate your frustration which is one of the reasons I never continued with homebuild. My plan was to put it all inside a YBOD cover to try to get around the boat operator issue )

Wisdom indeed. nice to converse with you mate.

Best regards,

Brent.

[nigelH]

This is without doubt, one of the best debates I've seen in a long time here.

Was it a debate?

I thought everybody toed the party line and agreed with one another and then slapped each another on the back for being so smart.

While agreeing that training is a good idea I'm not sure I can fall in with the treatment of it as the moral high ground. Don't ask to see my cert for the IDA-64.