Length of my hose (fnaar fnarr)

[Eddie]

Well guys and gals, as you know I'm in the rubber industry and we have are own onsite fire brigade and they use upside down tanks! and it seems to me that they have more chance of finding their valves in a emergency than I do!

[divedog]

Andy.. Im with you on this..Right way up.. inverted twins

To which I have just invested in a set  ... twin 10s.. heavy duty iso manifold..300 bar dins, twin clamps with stage rings on the upper band.. why might you add... Ive been seriously looking at my kit config alately... Ive decided to invest in the twins... why .. because  I want redundancy and lots of air ...  I feel safer with total life support package with Redundancy when its it strapped to my back.. but not conventionally...

Ive just been toy'ing with my kit today.. In the garage  I drilled in my backpack on my Commando TD.. amazing how APvalves preconcieved the twin set mounting on the backplate.. Why the Navy buy this Stab in the boat load.. as do the rescue, police, fire services (correct me if waffling)

It fits niceley.. easily diconnected .. easily re-assembled.... looked at the positioning.. mmm dodgy.. so put on wooly bear.. put on gates pro am drysuit... and gave myself a hernia lifting the whole 35.5 kg wackout on my back...(Mr unpopular on boat dives) next exercise...
put on fins... (this is personal to me as you I always find if my kits not fitted right you always find out about it when you move forward to put on fins.. and it ends up over your head or hanging around your ribs)... it hurt.. and reminded me that I need to hit the gym
again ... next tried to find the correct point of balance... quite easy with no wieght belt... and I made a note to pad up my cumberband a little at the back... Cylinder shutdown valves and iso's... Not a chance... my drybag is made to measure... but not made to give me the extra flexibility to make that reach.. funnily enough I remember when I was getting measured up for it ..
they never made me wear a polar bears undersuit ... hard work..makes me want to rely on a buddy !! and a very switched on one at that if my Hose blew or  I had a freeflow !! All 3 valves to operate were very
hard work and in this near summer heat I experienced the hardship of it ... not even in the water ..and sweating like a pervert in a brothel. Not for me its too hard work... invert them... do you all remember the link I sent earlier on in about the inverted twinsetup.. the guys
whose words  said that were not true enough.. Try it and see for yourself .. anyone is more than welcome to try it with my setup should we meet up..
there is only one way to judge it and that is to do it...
very simple, easy and a lot less bovver than a hover. Im sold on it !!!

The next problem I encountered was how the bloody #### do I get the air from my 1st stages to my second stage and into my lungs withouth entanglement , especially if I was wearing stages .. This was the most difficult one to recreate.. I took an old reel of garden hose..(roughly the same thickness and stiffness of an LP hose) and I fixed the lengths to the cylinder and fed them up between the backplate and the cylinders.. there is an ideal space to accom this and why... because its out of the way.. safe and makes it very easy to locate if I lost it, its as simple as placing an open hand on the back of your neck , I then fed them up to the left and right of my head... I found that 1.5 m were the ideal length
for my primary...but what about my secondary... mmm bears some thought .. but you can always take say a 1.8m hose to use as a donor reg... and tidy it up with Snoopies and securing it to the front - personal preference on this one I think...

[quote from Darthmoll]  I have always wondered why divers would want to 'invert' cylinders, above water it makes sense to me but not underwater, that is unless you know that you will have to operate in zero vis. Divers do not have to fight against gravity, and the less hose you have to get tangled up in things the better.

The navy have been inverting twins since the early 50s and the whole point behind it is the fact that they learn to operate their kit in zero vis with blacked out masks - how many recreational divers practice this and how many fail. UK diving visibility is variable and I have dived many a time on offshore/inland sites where people have kicked up the bottom that much that I was diving in near enough minestroni vis. The whole point of using a longer hose is to route it so that it is tucked away efficiently to reduce entanglement and place the hose in a position where it can be easily recovered should it be lost... its a simple case of placing an opened hand onto the back of your neck and you locate both reg hoses not just the one

I dont think it is neccessary to have 2 long hoses just for the sake that you might want to donate one .. you could use the longer one as initial primary or put it in a location where it can be easily wrenched from you .. after all .. if someone wants it they are going to take it.. whatever one it is... you just have to config your kit and know where either reg is so that you can efficiently pop either one back in and assess the situation and restore calm in the panicked one

Inverted... yes I would say the right way up just for the fact that you have access to shutdown your cylinder. Even if you were diving a single cylinder and you O popped or something similar .. you wouldnt be able to shutdown and the amount of air rocketting around the back of your head would make you shite in your drybag and  would only hinder you in sorting yourself out quickly and getting the pony in action.

Inverted ... well that would be just like a Sunday morning after 8 pints of Kronenburg and a curry on sat night !!

NOW THATS THE RIGHT WAY

:klo:

Great to see the points coming up ..  I think if youre investing in the twins and spending the money on the kit then you should at least spend the time and effort piecing it together and getting it right

[divedog]

Eddie.. do you work at a durex factory ??
:rofl:

[Eddie]

I have been waiting for that! :multi: I work for Vredestein, they make car tires and tractor tires! but I know somebody who just loves me in my rubber suit! :dance:  

[andy2tanx]

so after much deliberation and thought (not, me thinking, nah, never happen!) I have opted for 2m and 3m hoses.

After routing up the back I lose approx 2 feet so the lengths then become fairly standard really.  Picked up a valve protector and a cross valve along with an AP Valves longer feed for the wing (nearly forgot that one) so now just a case of putting that lot together!  Should be fun....

[parahandy]

As the praticalities of a cylinder shutdown were mentioned since i've only short arms with my dry suit on I find it very difficult to reach behind to the valve to shut it down. I've seem a contraption thats like an flexible extension to the shutdown knob. It's fitted on the end of a flexible hose type thing. Idea being you have the shutdown knob positioned coming out from under you arm or shoulder.
the one I saw was a Techy bit of kit. Anyone else seen it?

[andy2tanx]

I believe Ammers refers to it as the old 'slob knob' at times!

[Dominic]

Slob knobs can make it easier to isolate, but they have been known to jam when fully opened or closed, which means you have the risk of not being able to isolate, or of loosing half your gas from not being able to re-open.
You're far better off being able to reach the knobs by hand.

[Davey Willo]

Also wouldn't you need a 'slob Knob' for every valve... As isolating the two first stages from each other isn't very efficient if you can't shutdown the offending regulator or bit of kit that is spewing all of your vital air into the surrounding murk...
Granted this will save 1 bottle worths of air which would probably get you back to the surface, but I thought the idea was to be able to re-open the isolation valve, after shutting down the offending first stage and then breath both bottles again... So it would seem that 3 knobs are needed...... or very fexible limbs, or...... Tanks the right way up  ;)

Personally, I think I'll be inverting my tanks when I go to twins... I seem to remember reading or hearing on one of the DIR videos, that the only reason they didn't invert was because they already like to donate a very long hose, that it would mean that with inverted twins it might be unwieldy (I could be wrong but I remember something like that) Also George Irvine lll is so stuck up his own arse that he believes that you should have such control over movement thru the water that
a) There will never be a risk of clouting your first stages in an overhead environment (yeah right)
b) That you can, in a second, loosen your one piece harness enuff to slide the whole rig up your back and therefore reach your valves, perform your shutdown routine, swapping regulators etc, slide it back into place and tighten your harness again without loosing a centimeter of bouyancy control... (yeah right again)

Well for this less than flexible individual, I can either work on the principle that I'll never have a problem (yeah right again, again) or put my kit into a position that I can comfortably and safely shutdown and re-open my valves, without resorting to a myriad of slob knobs.... and that would be..... inverted!!

But as Divedog pointed out, its not until the whole thing is strapped to ones back, that you'll find out what is, and what is not achievable with your own kit and your own physique.

[divedog]

Andy ... where did you get your AP valves BC lead from !! and how much did it set you back
Also good news on my 1st stage front... I can get my Mares V16 1st stage converted to Din for 35 squid - Will be ready in a couple of weeks
Also .. what what where the prices for the hoses ??

My Girlfriends Dad is an engineer, has his own business/workshops , Ive approached him about fixing me up with a valve protection unit or clamp.. hes rather keen to take this on and even suggested building me an entire backpack to house cylinders ect.. (no thanks - would be Mr F*&&#36£g unpopular on a boat dive) Ive been looking at some various protectors.. but I want something strong enough to rest the set on .. and protect the 1st stages and hoses from getting snagged or trapped. if anyone has any ideas or designs they have seen previously .. they would be much appreciated ... I may get him to mass produce some if people are intrested

Ive heard of the slob Nobs and they are supposed to be a handy piece of kit.... but they work out expensive.. around 70 to 90 quid... but as dominic says .. they are prone to jam .. and although personally I have never used one.. what is the point of introducing another POINT OF FAIL on your kit.

Sorry Eddie.. just had a thought .. and couldnt resist !