Guns, Glorious Guns!

[String]

Id love to see the post shooting court case where they shot an unarmed man who was no immediate threat to anyones life.....

Only americans get away with gunning down unarmed civilians on a regular basis.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by String

Id love to see the post shooting court case where they shot an unarmed man who was no immediate threat to anyones life.....

Who was to say that the idiot was unarmed in the first place? We must remember that the term 'armed' is very generic and doesn't really take into account the threat of suicide bombers etc

Originally Posted by String

Only americans get away with gunning down unarmed civilians on a regular basis.

The blinkered view of someone who has never had to make a 'life or death decision' (literally) in a split second under extremely trying circumstances!

[Brass Monkey]

Someone on this thread called the allied forces in Iraq “frightened boys”. Firstly those so called frightened boys are not fighting civilians they are fighting Iraqi troops, yeah the ones who were no where to be seen during the initial invasion but dispersed into the local population to fight a guerilla war. You better believe they are frightened, I know I would be. Frightened, just like our troops have been in Northern Ireland for a very long time.
The yanks may be crazy and gun happy but get right down to it, the assault rifles are nothing compared to the hunting rifles. For every military weapon on the street there must be a dozen hunting weapons. Believe it or not the hunting weapons are far more lethal. Don't get carried away with the fact that the military hardware is automatic, most of the shots fired form auto weapons miss any way. The fact of the matter is that the whole gun culture is dangerous not just the military carp, this is just something that the press has picked up on. Before anyone starts going on about an AK 47 being deadly try comparing that against a high velocity 9mm stalking rifle (plenty of people have survived the AK non survive one of these). We had the ban on hand guns in the UK but how many of you are aware that for every hand gun removed from an FAC another weapon ie a rifle was awarded. So what we had was guys with pistols that could fire 6 to 9 shots with a range of 90m or so. Now we have the same people with rifles with 5 to 20 shot capacities ranges and a potential killing power far greater than any hand gun. No way can we get rid of the dear stalking rifles or the shot guns. Most of the House of Lords possess both. We should all look to home before we criticise others. After all is said and done the only people who struggle to get their hands on guns are the normal members of society, the criminals never had and never will have any problem obtaining fire arms.


Dave.

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by Angus

The blinkered view of someone who has never had to make a 'life or death decision' (literally) in a split second under extremely trying circumstances!

So true.

Dave

[String]

Life or death decision threatening to shoot someone carrying a ladder ?!

Attempt to get the ladder off him or make a normal arrest would suffice.

Given the person in question was outside a fortified building on a small ledge with nobody near him its a bit ridiculous to consider it a threat what so ever.

As for the americans comment, their record speaks for itself in terms of civilians butchered (usually through incompetence not malice admittedly) in iraq and afghanistan - theyve killed far more civilians in both those places than they lose in 11/9.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by String

Life or death decision threatening to shoot someone carrying a ladder ?!

Ok, so you've mixed up the two quotes to suit, so be it. The fact still remains that 'Batman' could have been carring anything other than his tool pouch and to say that it would be ridiculous to consider him a threat what-so-ever is a little narrow minded. Throughout history people 'not considered a threat' have carried out some hideous atrocities.

Originally Posted by String

As for the americans comment, their record speaks for itself in terms of civilians butchered (usually through incompetence not malice admittedly) in iraq and afghanistan - theyve killed far more civilians in both those places than they lose in 11/9.

Of course they have, because according to the 'totally unbiased media' everyone killed by the Americans were totally innocent!! Just like the vast majority of people killed in Northern Ireland by the security forces during the past 35 years!!

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by String

Life or death decision threatening to shoot someone carrying a ladder ?!

Attempt to get the ladder off him or make a normal arrest would suffice.

Given the person in question was outside a fortified building on a small ledge with nobody near him its a bit ridiculous to consider it a threat what so ever.

I remember being on a training exercise where you sit in an observation post and are told to shoot all terrorists. The bad guys are painted all black everybody else will be painted in normal colours. So there was I with my buddy watching all these manikins moving about the street when one came around the corner at the top of the street carrying an assault rifle. This one was in the shade carrying an assault rifle and now he was pointing it at me. Bang, bang I put tow rounds though it, on it came right down the street. No prizes for guessing this one was carrying a ladder.
To this day I'm not sure what I was meant to learn from that particular part of the exercise, should I have waited longer before opening fire? To me the guy was armed and dangerous. The light plays tricks and when it's for real you have got a split second to make a decision. When ever I hear about the wrong guy getting it (friendly fire or collateral damage as they call it) I always think, who are we to judge we were not there we did not see things though the eyes of the guy doing the shooting.


Dave.

[John N]

Originally Posted by Brass Monkey

... the assault rifles are nothing compared to the hunting rifles. For every military weapon on the street there must be a dozen hunting weapons. Believe it or not the hunting weapons are far more lethal. Don't get carried away with the fact that the military hardware is automatic, most of the shots fired form auto weapons miss any way. The fact of the matter is that the whole gun culture is dangerous not just the military carp...
Dave.

I've never seen a military carp, are they heavily armed?

I'm no expert on weapons, but I would have thought there are several factors which would favour say an Uzi in a street situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but compared to a hunting rifle it is lighter, more easily concealable, can fire more rapidly and has a larger magazine.
The fatality rate or hit rate isn't a key issue in this equation.

In certain situations, a hunting rifle is more deadly than a shoulder fired rocket but that doesn't mean that rocket launchers should be sold on the high street, does it?

I'm not having a go at the Americans but I think any slackening of the already slack gun laws over there is a bad thing.
The gun issue does demonstrate the problems that written constitutions bring with them though. When you set something in stone like 'the right to bear arms', you can't forsee what will happen in a couple of hundred years time when 'arms' are a shit load more dangerous than they used to be. Changing the constitution in the States is virtually impossible and that is a bad thing.

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by JJJBBB

Alas, they are taking us down with them thanks to Mr BLiar .

Outstanding! First time I've seen that used, but hopefully not the last

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by John Nortcliff

In certain situations, a hunting rifle is more deadly than a shoulder fired rocket but that doesn't mean that rocket launchers should be sold on the high street, does it?

Missed my point, what I'm saying is that all guns are dangerous! The press gets hyped up about assault rifles but do we hear anything about the countless thousands of hunting rifles sold every year. Yes military hard ware (crap) does have a higher rate of fire and when used in confined areas can give a high hit rate. With hunting weapons the hit to fatality ratio is far higher so therefore they are more lethal and should be under tighter control. It all comes down to ballistics, cosmetics and newspaper sales. The military stuff looks scary and makes for better tabloid journalism.
It cost the UK a fortune to take the handguns off people AND THEN ARM THEM WITH RIFLES. How much would such a move cost the states, apart from being impossible to enforce. I for one belive that no one outside the police or the military should posses a fire arm. You could own one but it’s to be locked away and stored at the range when not being used.


Dave.