UK 'ID Cards' - Do you want them?

[RobK]

Originally Posted by imported_andyp

Do you honestly beleive this.

Andrew

What, that we live in a free society?

Naah not really. But we _are_ supposed to be aren't we?

I mean, this _is_ supposed to be a free society isn't it? That's what they tell us.

I'll let you know if the thought police are outside my house when I get home :-)

Cheers,
Rob.

I think ID cards are a good idea.
But an even better idea would be for your DNA to be taken when you were born.
Then let some B*****D go out and rape or murder someone.

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mares

I think ID cards are a good idea.
But an even better idea would be for your DNA to be taken when you were born.
Then let some B*****D go out and rape or murder someone.

Amen to that! And not just rape/murder, but any form of malfeasance can at least have the opportunity of being solved - assuming the perp has left some DNA.

[PeteM]

Originally Posted by chrisch

If you don't have to carry it I personally cannot see how it is an infringement of civil liberties.

Because the current plan is you will be forced to buy one.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Bren Tierney

but any form of malfeasance can at least have the opportunity of being solved

Bloody hell Bren - dunno about rapists & murderers but some of the words you use are criminal!!

[Diving Daisy]

Originally Posted by RobK

I voted no, for the same reasons I gave in the last poll. I don't need a piece of paper to prove I'm me.

That rather depends on where that question is asked, and who's doing the asking

Yes officer I'm me honest, might not cut it

[Flyboy]

I voted YES - as a Serviceman I've carried ID for the last 30 years and its been nothing but useful but the main reason I think we should have them is to help prevent NHS and benefit rip-offs. At the moment it's almost impossible to show that a scrounger from abroad who's here just to use the NHS or claim double benefits while working on the black is not entitled. An ID card would go a long way to cutting down on the fraud. Mind we shouldn't have to pay for the honour of owning one

[Diving Daisy]

ID cards...YES. As long as the system is managed properly (unlikely)

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by RobK

I voted no, for the same reasons I gave in the last poll. I don't need a piece of paper to prove I'm me.

Ahem, you might not think that you need to: 'others' might - and probably will - and with good reason; this is post 9/11 (wake up!); you might as well get used to it.

At the risk of sounding trite, the world changed on that day - there is no longer a 'Gentleman's Agreement' between warring-factions (and hasn't been since before the Peninsula Wars on land and the Battle of the Nile at sea - and perhaps the 'Privateer Conflicts' before that).

The last time the UK had ID cards was during the Second World War - we're now in every much bit of peril as that time. Don't fool yourself that we're not.

As somone born and now living post WW2, you've no idea of the level of 'on the spot inspection and arrest on the meagerest suspicion' which went on then, let alone now. German Para's who landed and were arrested were taken to the Tower for summary execution by firing squad (as enemies of the State in a time of war) - not bunged in goal so some liberal system might given them prayer rights.

What we face today is every bit as much of a war - the fact that Luftwaffe-dropped bombs are not falling on London (though don't be surprised if something far worse happens in the not too distant future) is no excuse for being complacent.

(Then - WW2 - was far more stringent and severe than anything you've ever known - let alone now) - you're just used to the 'a pleaseance' rules of the game which was the UK period between WW2 and now - where all kinds and aspects of personal accountability were/are taken for granted; and your say-so was taken on-the-nod of "OK, Mr 'So-and-So', please be so kind as to take your documents to a police station of your choosing within the next seven days"..... So please don't think that liberal credentials and a 'being pissed off with Blunkett' (it would have gone down the same under any Home Sec in the current climate - perhaps worse) would do/is gonna make a difference.

On my working travels, I've found that people don't want to be (as a rule), not unsurprisingly, blown up - and they'll go a long way to avoid it: so frankly (as they see it) - F*ck you and your 'how dare you ask me questions about me....'. type objections about your personal 'freedoms'.

If asking you (or anyone in your company) questions, or demanding answers from you saves lives, or prevents batches of folks getting a Semtex Siesta, then rest assured, you're gonna get asked questions and please don't be put out by the way those questions might be asked.

It's precisely that voodoo loop-hole which they (those seeking to cause norz) rely on and allows the bombers through. Sorry to rain on your 'intrinsic liberties' parade. You might thank this ruling...one day.

You also ignore the fact that your 'personal liberties' count for dick when the abillty to have the potential perps arrested and either put in prison or deported to their 'domicile of difference' (where, more often than not, they are wanted for similar crimes).

Why do you think they come to Western countries?

The fact that they can 'blend in' and do their worst (coz we guarantee an 'oh, please don't question any 'ethnics' - they might shout 'foul!' and we could never have that, it raises far too much paper-work because of the voodoo PC-system we have, type angle?) They have learned their enemies' weaknesses - we play into their hands because we are free - they play on those freedoms.

These people come from countries which are - to a man - Theocracies (out of the 74 Muslim countries extant, not one is a democracy), without any form of plural democracy; and yet they seek to subvert our democracy by corrupting the liberal rules of our democracies against us. This is NOT the will of Islam and does NOT represent Islam - yet this minority of 'They are ALL infidels' wankers seek to change that and - in their heads - seek to convert us by bombing us? The IRA couldn't achieve that over 30 years of norz - how are/why should these fuckwits be allowed to?

So when you whine about 'I got asked for my ID card tonight!' - do you honestly have anything to worry about? As long as your shit is in order and beyond question? NO! So what's your problem?? Please - spell it out!

Originally Posted by RobK

Passports and Driving Licences are voluntary. You don't _have_ to have one. ID cards would not be.

OK, here's the news. Forms of ID are 'voluntary' in the UK: just about everywhere else in the developed world/First World - and, ironically most Third World dictatorships (Mugabe's Zimbabwe ring any bells?) they are mandatory - under pain of 'don't produce them, and 'have a nice day'. If you've ever seen, first hand, what can happen in unbridled Africa to those who don't tow the party line (slowly chopped up, whilst breathing and screaming - beginning with the extremities and working down/up to more 'vital' parts of the anatomy), then I'd defy you to use the description 'Fascist' about the UK. A few 'questionables' getting locked up for a while on the basis that they might be a genuine threat I can live with - if they are innocent, then there's no harm done and they sue the gov't (you and me) for funds for the privilage. Big deal.

Passports were brought in to existence in 1915 (post the 1912 'Titanic' disaster) - before that, passage was 'taken on trust' and on the production of a ticket (9/11? Internal flight - no passport required) - and like that has got us far in these latter days? The world has changed; people now want to blow you up; a new reason and common understanding to prevent that is needed. Folks who don't understand that need a word with themselves as the terrorists will give no quarter - neither should we. If we need to ask for ID, then I think this is a meager compromise, given the current circumstances.

I'd advise that you deal with it.

Originally Posted by RobK

Sturmbannfurher Von Blunkett trots out the same old rubbish about how they will reduce terrorism which is simply wrong.

Nice 'soundbite' - care to explain precisely 'how'?

Originally Posted by RobK

Once again the only people to be affected by his illiberal right-wing control freak office will be ordinary law abiding citizens like me

Be honest - name one aspect of this government (with the exceptions of stealth-taxes and the non-provision of body-armour to troops in the field - which are now so prevalent they are no longer 'stealth' - numbering 66 taxes, and counting) - which has been 'illiberal'? Go on - you know you want to!

Originally Posted by RobK

What's next? I know, how about detension centers where we can hold people without trial or access to a lawyer that should stop those bloody immigrants in their tracks! Oh hang on...we already have those don't we...

Dude see above: if 5 or 6 get a sniff of ANYONE who 'might not have this country's best endeavours at heart', then hey, I'm happy for said dudes to have a massive payout on being found innocent and on being released after the fact - at my expense - if found to be 'on the level and good to go'!

Such a step just might mean that they didn't blow up a Tube station, the Houses of Parliament, Leeds-Bradford Airport, a train transporting nuclear-waste or BNFL in the process. Happy to live with that - it's not like they're getting put in front of a summary firing-squad is it? Be serious.

It's a matter of priorities - not liberties. If the many can live without fear and death, then the few who might get nicked on the off-chance are just gonna have to take it and like it. Hey, they might never forgive us, and get a nice pay-off into the bargain, but the many will live. Next question?

Frankly - and the f*ck the Bono-sucking Liberati - if ANYONE (coz we don't hang anyone any more - and I'm NOT for a moment suggesting we begin to do so again! I'm against capital punishment - although 'shot in the palpable furtherance of...' is OK), if someone gets caught under 'questionable' actions, then hey, expect what's in-coming: you've either come here or are already resident and don't have this coutry's (or its peoples') best interests at heart - then take yer f*ckin medicine.

If you are prepared to use/deploy extreme measures (explosive, 'dirty-bombs', Hostage-taking, terrorist activities etc.) then you do - coz you've been trained to expect it - expect 'extreme' measures from the host government (Iranian Embassy?): and you've also been trained to play every card in the liberal "How dare you treat me this way!" canon which your host gov't affords its own - non-terrorist - population, and bleed it for all it's worth, and then get the Guardianstas and fucking Polly Toynbees of this world to babble bullshit on your behalf.

Luckily the majority of the UK doesn't agree with MIZZZZZZZZ Toynbee et al.

Sorry. It's not going to wash: and don't expect to find sympathy amongst the 'if you've got a ruck, then do it through politics and not the bomb' people whom you are bombing and trying to play fast-and-loose with their liberal justice system. You may just find that the the majority wants you locked-up on the 'off-chance' that you might be a menace. We've had the PIRA for 30 years before you (and they didn't get their way with their methods either: and you are worse) - why should we treat you any differently?

Failing that - and if you have the courage of your convictions - then go to Iraq and stand your ground with the Mad Mullahs: although don't be surprised if the average squadddie takes the attitude "fuck with the best and die - like the rest". Your way clashes with ours - and we're also prepared to fight for it!

You play by 'no rules' and yet you expect us to? Wake up and smell percisely what you're shovelling! It looks like a NATO 5.56 and 7.62, a LAWS, a Milan and a Stinger - and you invited us to play by your voodoo hostage-taking, your bombs, your planes going into buildings and your general hatred of anything which is not the Whahabi way of life. So be it.

OK. Let's play.

Originally Posted by RobK

Sorry for the rant, but I was under the impression that we were living in a free society not some uber-fascist police state.

LOL. FFS.

'Fascist state'? You haven't a Scooby what a 'fascist state' is.

So, in your 'analysis' of the UK being anything like an attempt at a 'fascist state', did you once consider the day-to-day of Franco's Spain? Pinochet's Chile? Stalin's USSR? Mussolini's Italy? The Mullah's Iran? The Taliban's Afghanistan? Mao's China? Modern-day Burma? Up-until-recently-East Timor? The UN debacle that was Rwanda? Hitler's Germany?

Get a grip.

Originally Posted by RobK

The sooner we get rid of the mad old bugger and replace him with someone with views slightly to the left of atilla the hun the better!

Who? Mandy's gone to join the 'Choir Invisible' (although sorely-felt) ranks of the EU. John Redwood? Norman Tebbit? Anyone from the Tory front-bench (God help us!)

Dude - two words: 'Context' and 'reality'.

[Andrew H]

The only thing that changed on 9/11 was that the Americans got significantly less tolerable. At last they got a problem with which they could fuel their xenophobia, and beat up some one else for. Most of the 9/11 highjackers came from Saudi, so the US bomb afginistan into oblivion on the tail of one man. What did they do after the Oklahoma bombing? Bugger all. Harder to sort out your own people isn't it? Now evryone passing through the US gets fingerprinted. I feel much safer now don't you?

To cap it all of the have the audacity to term the site "ground zero" after the epicentre of an atomic blast. We all know which country has used that weapon of mass destruction on innocent civilians.

Britain survived the IRA the PLO and we will survive this too.

Andrew