UK 'ID Cards' - Do you want them?

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Flyboy

I voted YES - as a Serviceman I've carried ID for the last 30 years and its been nothing but useful but the main reason I think we should have them is to help prevent NHS and benefit rip-offs. At the moment it's almost impossible to show that a scrounger from abroad who's here just to use the NHS or claim double benefits while working on the black is not entitled. An ID card would go a long way to cutting down on the fraud. Mind we shouldn't have to pay for the honour of owning one

I'm sorry to dissappoint you on both counts. You will have to pay for it (Stealth taxes anyone???) and it will not stop NHS fraud by foreigners nor will it stop DSS benefit fraud.

Spain has ID cards and has benefit fraud. They have cut down on it by a biometric system for claimants. Such a system has a value in as much as it is a detterent and works a bit. It is self-financing if employed properly.

The UK could introduce such a system but will not because it lessens the case for ID cards. Meantime you and I are "paying" by virtue of missappropriated DSS money - money that is targetted at the poorest people in society.

That is a scandal.

ID cards do not work and I challenge anyone to prove different.

As to 9/11 remember these guys did not disguise their ID at all. They were proud of what they were about to do.

This is a complex subject - civil liberties and so on. There is a simple fact - ID cards don't work.

Chris

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by Andrew H

The only thing that changed on 9/11 was that the Americans got significantly less tolerable.

And the fact that a team of zealots tanned a quatrain of planes into various buildings killing approximately 3,000 innocents passed you by, did it? What a seer you are.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

At last they got a problem with which they could fuel their xenophobia, and beat up some one else for.

You say that like you feel that they deserved it? The US may have a way of life, a set of values, a representation of gov't and a president with which you strenuously disagree, but, that aside, no nation deserved 9/11 - or anything like it.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

Most of the 9/11 highjackers came from Saudi, so the US bomb afginistan into oblivion on the tail of one man.

And your specialist subject being what? Deliberately misleading hyperbole and the self-delusional misrepresentative sound-bite?

OBL is Saudi (albeit via a Yemeni scion), as were the majority of the 9/11 killers; OBL was stupid enough to video himself and his immediate lieutenants discussing and revelling in 'the mission' - this then, in a matter of hours, made its way to Langley. By his own words - and by a raft of other subsequent admissions of guilt in the atrocity - was he damned. So be it. He was in Afghanistan with his al-Q brethren and Taliban protectors/sponsors.

So based on the above information - where was the US always gonna after and bomb, send troops in to and direct its ire? West Drayton?

Originally Posted by Andrew H

What did they do after the Oklahoma bombing? Bugger all. Harder to sort out your own people isn't it?

So infiltrating the militias, Clinton putting a 10-year ban on their weapons of choice, and then putting the culprits of the bombing on trial and executing one of them and putting the other away for the term of his natural life is 'nothing', is it? Then I guess we must have different terms of reference when it comes to quantitives.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

Now evryone passing through the US gets fingerprinted. I feel much safer now don't you?

It's their country dude - get used to it.

And whose fault is it anyway?

Do you honestly think the US just got bored one day and said, "hey, I know, for a giggle, why don't we decide to piss-off 99% of the planet, increase our own admin 5,000%, make Federal funds available to hire a few million more staff (which, incidently, we'll now always need, coz this wee 'problem' we have aint gonna go away, and who, btw, none of whom we needed pre-9/11) and just generally bugger folks about? Wha'd'ya say, guys?"

Just because the UK chooses to allow blind-hook-clawed Mullahs from Egypt to remain here and spread their poison is a fault of and one of the many pitfalls of a free society mate. The sooner his sorry arse is on a plane to the US the better for all of us.

When those same Mad Mullahs make it their life's work to destroy any freedoms they consider run counter to Whahabism - and then fly planes into buildings to 'emphasise' their point - then being fingerprinted is a small price to pay in attempting to seek out the Mullahs' Messengers.

I'm sure you'll get over it.

Originally Posted by Andrew H

To cap it all of the have the audacity to term the site "ground zero" after the epicentre of an atomic blast. We all know which country has used that weapon of mass destruction on innocent civilians.

Christ on a bike...

Sorry dude, but you're either being deliberatelly obtuse or incredibly naive - either way, you show a lamentable grasp of history.

The atom bombs were used to bring the war to a close in short order: to prevent another 3 or four years of mutual slaughter and all the attendant civilian life which would have gone with it: ergo, by crew twist of irony saving more lives than the bombs took!

You also seem to forget Pearl Harbour? The Japs attacked the USA! Ringing any bells yet? They attack the US and then have the brass neck to whine about the methods used in the prosecution of its counter attack? It's hardly like using the Bomb was a 'first option' was it?

And Saddam's use of Mustard Gas on the Kurds was what, perchance? Scotch Mist (if you'll pardon the metaphor)?

Either way, your selective amnesia made you miss Stalin's purges and pogroms: relatively few people were killed in both atom bomb drops, when set against the millions killed by this butcher (he makes Hilter look like a total beginner)

Originally Posted by Andrew H

Britain survived the IRA the PLO and we will survive this too.

Andrew

Eh? The PLO? They'll survive what?

I refer the gentleman to my former reply: 'Context and reality' - with a side of 'relevance' chucked in for good measure.

[NotDeadYet]

I voted no, why should I have to prove who I am in my own country? Deport me somewhere warm then... There have been more terrorist attacks in this country by British citizens than foreign nationals.

I lived in the US for a few years, pre 11/9. They have always been obsessive about ID even then. Which means people are obssessive about obtaining fake or alternate ID. It wasn't that hard to do as the millions of students (21 drinking age) proved. It wasn't even that hard to get official ID, I had driving licences for 4 states (handy when they suspended one of them). When there is someone checking IDs you can bet there is someone else not far away making very good fake ones.

What does an ID card prove? That you can use Photoshop and have a laminator? In the US, ID obssession just gave the coppers one more thing to pester you about.

ID cards is just another easy target like fox hunting. Something that will win the government votes without them having to tackle any difficult issues at the root of it, whether it be terrorism, benefit fraud, immigration, whatever. Why not address the causes of the problems rather than just sticking an elastoplast on it? Oh yeah, it doesn't make good headlines in middle England...

[Bantam]

My only caveat is that the data isn't in the public domain, and that it's securely encrypted, and it's not sold.

That is that they don't use the Internet to pass it around. If they have a DB of everyone in the UK then it should be closed network, private wire and so-on, much like the banking network. There should be no connection to the internet at any point.

Also, unlike the electoral roll which is searchable on the internet (unless you elect not to have it, a bit like ex-directory telephone lists) it should not be sold on for use by commercial organisations.

Mark.

[Bantam]

Originally Posted by NotDeadYet

What does an ID card prove? That you can use Photoshop and have a laminator? In the US, ID obssession just gave the coppers one more thing to pester you about.

I don't think the UK ones will be quite as simple as photoshop and a laminator. They're looking to use smart cards with biometric ID.

For example;
"Smarts cards may have up to 1 kilobyte of RAM, 24 kilobytes of ROM, 16 kilobytes of programmable ROM, and an 8-bit microprocessor running at 5 MHz. The smart card uses a serial interface and receives its power from external sources like a card reader. The processor uses a limited instruction set for applications such as cryptography."

I believe the new ones have more Flash RAM space for data?

Mark.

[RobK]

Originally Posted by Bren Tierney

Ahem, you might not think that you need to: 'others' might - and probably will - and with good reason; this is post 9/11 (wake up!); you might as well get used to it.

Wake up to what? Wake up to the fact that the world is full of people who don't like the way the west acts and intend to do something about it? We known that for years FFS and all the ID cards in the world won't stop it.

(Snip)

So when you whine about 'I got asked for my ID card tonight!' - do you honestly have anything to worry about? As long as your shit is in order and beyond question? NO! So what's your problem?? Please - spell it out!

Ahhh, the old 'The Innocent Have Nothing To Fear' routine. Try telling that to the Birmingham Six.

OK, here's the news. Forms of ID are 'voluntary' in the UK: just about everywhere else in the developed world/First World - and, ironically most Third World dictatorships (Mugabe's Zimbabwe ring any bells?) they are mandatory - under pain of 'don't produce them, and 'have a nice day'. If you've ever seen, first hand, what can happen in unbridled Africa to those who don't tow the party line (slowly chopped up, whilst breathing and screaming - beginning with the extremities and working down/up to more 'vital' parts of the anatomy), then I'd defy you to use the description 'Fascist' about the UK. A few 'questionables' getting locked up for a while on the basis that they might be a genuine threat I can live with - if they are innocent, then there's no harm done and they sue the gov't (you and me) for funds for the privilage. Big deal.

Yes Bren, big fucking deal. You may take other peoples liberty as being something of no importance but I don't. No-one has the right to lock people away with no trial, no access to a lawyer and inhumane treatment. Depriving people of their families, depriving children of a mother or father just because they happen to be the wrong colour/relegion/in the wrong place is fundamentally wrong. To turn round at the end of it after 20 years and say "No harm done matey, here's a fiver for your trouble, now on your way" is the action of a state that doesn't deserve to call itself civilised.

(snip)


Nice 'soundbite' - care to explain precisely 'how'?

Err Spain Bren. You've probably heard of them. Nice country, warm, sunny, big on Piella,ID cards and terrorist attacks.

Be honest - name one aspect of this government (with the exceptions of stealth-taxes and the non-provision of body-armour to troops in the field - which are now so prevalent they are no longer 'stealth' - numbering 66 taxes, and counting) - which has been 'illiberal'? Go on - you know you want to!

The Fox Hunting Ban. Illiberal.

Dude see above: if 5 or 6 get a sniff of ANYONE who 'might not have this country's best endeavours at heart', then hey, I'm happy for said dudes to have a massive payout on being found innocent and on being released after the fact - at my expense - if found to be 'on the level and good to go'!


Such a step just might mean that they didn't blow up a Tube station, the Houses of Parliament, Leeds-Bradford Airport, a train transporting nuclear-waste or BNFL in the process. Happy to live with that - it's not like they're getting put in front of a summary firing-squad is it? Be serious.

It's a matter of priorities - not liberties. If the many can live without fear and death, then the few who might get nicked on the off-chance are just gonna have to take it and like it. Hey, they might never forgive us, and get a nice pay-off into the bargain, but the many will live. Next question?

Ok Bren, let me ask you a question, How many is 'a few'?

10?
100?
100,000?
1,000,000?

How many innocent people is it aceptable to lock up?

If it were your familly behind bars when you knew they had done nothing wrong would you be on here going "Well my familly has been locked away for nothing but that's ok as long as you guys are alright?

Frankly - and the f*ck the Bono-sucking Liberati

And fuck[1] the guns and ammo / international soldier of fortune / daily fascist reading right wing loons.

(snip)


LOL. FFS.

'Fascist state'? You haven't a Scooby what a 'fascist state' is.

Sure I do Bren. Strangely enough, you're not the only one on here with some idea of what goes on in the world.

So, in your 'analysis' of the UK being anything like an attempt at a 'fascist state', did you once consider the day-to-day of Franco's Spain? Pinochet's Chile? Stalin's USSR? Mussolini's Italy? The Mullah's Iran? The Taliban's Afghanistan? Mao's China? Modern-day Burma? Up-until-recently-East Timor? The UN debacle that was Rwanda? Hitler's Germany?

Get a grip.

My point is that the more that we move away from the idea of personal freedoms[2] the more like the 'enemy' we become. And then they've won haven't they...because we'll be just like them.

Dude - two words: 'Context' and 'reality'.

Keep up the practice Bren. Soon you'll be able to be Really patronising.

Cheers
Rob.
[1] If your gonna swear, swear proper.
[2] And personal responsibilities as well of course.

[Bantam]

Originally Posted by RobK

Ahhh, the old 'The Innocent Have Nothing To Fear' routine. Try telling that to the Birmingham Six.

Don't flame me for this, but just a point of note.

I have a friend whose Dad was a copper who went round to pick up the Birmingham Sixes families from their houses after they had fled. (I'm originally from Brum)

Strangely enough at 3am they were all up, dressed, kids dressed and packed.

Allegedly, the first thing the wife said to the copper when she opened the door was 'We wondered how long it would take for you to get here'.

IIRC It's well known that they only got off because the police shagged up the evidence.
Otherwise why would they have been on a train to Ireland at that time? There's loads of evidence putting all of them there.

[RobK]

Originally Posted by Bantam

Don't flame me for this

Sorry but I can't help meself

, but just a point of note.

I have a friend whose Dad was a copper who went round to pick up the Birmingham Sixes families from their houses after they had fled. (I'm originally from Brum)

Strangely enough at 3am they were all up, dressed, kids dressed and packed.

Strange that, you'd think that with their husbands/fathers being arrested like that they'd have all gone off for a nice kip.

Allegedly, the first thing the wife said to the copper when she opened the door was 'We wondered how long it would take for you to get here'.

Really? Well that's as good as a confession isn't it.

IIRC It's well known that they only got off because the police shagged up the evidence.

Got Off?

So all that time they spent in prison was a happy sunny wait was it?

And when you say "shagged up the evidence" do you mean that the police should have been more carefull when altering the statements so it wasn't detectable?

Otherwise why would they have been on a train to Ireland at that time? There's loads of evidence putting all of them there.

Yeah thats right. I mean imagine being on a train. Especially what with them being Irish and everything. I mean it's a well known fact. All Irishmen travelling on a train are guilty of something!

[Helen F H]

Originally Posted by RobK

All Irishmen travelling on a train are guilty of something!

Connor! What you been up to mate?

[NotDeadYet]

"So, in your 'analysis' of the UK being anything like an attempt at a 'fascist state', did you once consider the day-to-day of Franco's Spain? Pinochet's Chile? Stalin's USSR? Mussolini's Italy? The Mullah's Iran? The Taliban's Afghanistan? Mao's China? Modern-day Burma? Up-until-recently-East Timor? The UN debacle that was Rwanda? Hitler's Germany?"

To be fair, in most of them, at least the trains ran on time...