Say it with Pride...I didn't go to University...

[Janos]

I think there's an awful lot of generalisation going on here. Some students do get bladdered every night, others buckle down and spend all their time in the library. Guess which ones you are more likely to see?

Laters,
Janos

PS - I think you should only be proud of having done something, not of having not-done something (criminal offences excluded )

[resting rifleman]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan

I am personally saddened to read the various posts on this thread that condemn students. I personally don't think most of you have had experience of studying at university. I am a first year university student and I have worked so hard to earn my place to study Civil and Coastal Engineering. OK fair enough I go out drinking and socialising to have a good time but that doesn't mean that I don't get up early in the morning to go to lectures and study hard. And before someone says 'oh well you haven’t worked in the real world' then I’ll tell you that I have for a long time to fund my degree which isn’t guaranteed anyway because it can be so difficult. I am surprised to see that in this day and age there are still people who view students as scum/losers when my friends and me work so hard. I'm not saying that people on here don't work hard; it's just that you think students are the lowest of the low when all I’m trying to do is improve my future prospects at a cost.
Do you think that I want leave university with major debt??????
I'll tell you where money is being wasted - the dole office or as it is now known 'Job Seekers Allowance'????
I'd just like to say that you should think before you make statements that you have never had any experience of.

leave it out geez, we've ALL seen "the young ones" on the telly.

[Allan Carr]

I read Chemistry at Uni at one of the leading non-Oxbridge ones during the mid-60's. They had very high entry requirements but threw out nearly 30% of the intake so you had to work hard just to survive on the course. Friends of mine who went to other less prestigious universities had an easier time. However, it served me well and I ended up after a few years with a well paid job and travelled the world with it. At that time, far less than 10% of the population went on to Uni and degrees then had considerably more value than they seem to have nowadays - when this government wants 50% to go on to HE. Do 50% of the jobs in this country really require graduate level skills?

There seems to be a desperate shortage of skilled tradesmen in many areas and many of these earn far more than graduates. Where we do have a real need for graduate skills is in the science/engineering/technology fields but these are expensive courses to run and many universities are cutting back on these in order to run useless trivia like cartoon studies. I really think we have got our educational priorities completely wrong.

[sjrw]

Originally Posted by Janos

I think there's an awful lot of generalisation going on here.

Without generalisations in a debate, there is only pointless nit-picking. This thread is really about a "big picture" rather than the few "good" students or "bad" students who throw their arms up in despair.

Originally Posted by Janos

PS - I think you should only be proud of having done something, not of having not-done something (criminal offences excluded )

A good philosophy.

Originally Posted by Allan Carr

There seems to be a desperate shortage of skilled tradesmen in many areas and many of these earn far more than graduates. Where we do have a real need for graduate skills is in the science/engineering/technology fields but these are expensive courses to run and many universities are cutting back on these in order to run useless trivia like cartoon studies. I really think we have got our educational priorities completely wrong.)

Talk to each successive government from Thatcher onwards.


PS I did maths at York, but if you don't get a first in maths it's a bit of a slur on your character. 2.1 is "ok"... and I've never used it since then. I've done a few jobs, been around the world a bit and the best job I ever had was as a Bass Trombone player in HM Coldstream Guards. Wish I could still be doing it. Now I climb poles for a living...

[Lynne]

Originally Posted by Allan Carr

run useless trivia like cartoon studies. I really think we have got our educational priorities completely wrong.

Agreed - like "pop art" "media studies" and that ever wonderful "sociology", where the graduates wonder why they can't get a well paid job simply because they turned up for Uni for a few years - in what ffs? In, presumably, teaching the useless subject they chose to take a degree in.

With the government's push for widening participation in higher education, this situation can only become more comical, as more and more students are arriving for courses they are unable to master - is it really a University's job to teach remedial maths and English to students before they can even start their course? What does it say about the state of education in this country, or the calibre of students, that they are passing their A levels and require such additional teaching?

Some people have said people are being negative about students and how hard they work. I, personally, have no issue with students who chose a subject which will end in a career, but most certainly do have a problem with students taking "wooly" subjects, then leaving University virtually demanding a £50k a year job - here's a thought - get the knowledge and experience required for said job, then you'll be appointed! Until then, I'm afraid that you will have to do what the rest of the population has to do, and work your way up the career ladder, over many years of hard work. A piece of paper does not prove you can do a job, it merely implies you have the knowledge to do so.

And to all those hard working students out there - you know this is NOT aimed at you and you KNOW there are a lot of students like this - so no offence to yourselves is intended in any way

[sjrw]

Originally Posted by Lynne

A piece of paper does not prove you can do a job, it merely implies you have the knowledge to do so.

Unfortunately some companies still don't understand this. My company, for example, has a thriving graduate entry scheme. They bring them in, give them a team to play with. Said Graduates have a few ideas that are implemented. They get a payout and go further up the ladder. The people who have to try to make those ideas work know what a load of tosh they are, but hey, we've been here before so what the heck. Six months down the line we revert to the tried and tested. (Usually these ideas mean less money for the rank and file.)

Originally Posted by Lynne

And to all those hard working students out there - you know this is NOT aimed at you and you KNOW there are a lot of students like this - so no offence to yourselves is intended in any way

Echoed.

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by Lynne

It seems like you're under the impression that someone with a degree is more highly skilled than someone without it - not true in any way shape or form, certainly in my field - I have never said further education is a bad thing, I was merely pointing out that it does not necessarily make you better at your job - I simply object to the vast majority of students I see (looking out of my office window!) who put no work in until the last minute and having spent three years boozing, which I am paying for.

replying without having read further posts

well said I have seen so many graduates go straight onto site as consultant engineers who couldnt engineer their way out of a paper bag with a map and a big sign with an arrow saying way out this way.

experience is something gained over a long timescale ( much like diving) not fast tracked in on a 3 year degree course

[dry suit diver]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Dan

I am personally saddened to read the various posts on this thread that condemn students. I personally don't think most of you have had experience of studying at university. I am a first year university student and I have worked so hard to earn my place to study Civil and Coastal Engineering. OK fair enough I go out drinking and socialising to have a good time but that doesn't mean that I don't get up early in the morning to go to lectures and study hard. And before someone says 'oh well you haven’t worked in the real world' then I’ll tell you that I have for a long time to fund my degree which isn’t guaranteed anyway because it can be so difficult. I am surprised to see that in this day and age there are still people who view students as scum/losers when my friends and me work so hard. I'm not saying that people on here don't work hard; it's just that you think students are the lowest of the low when all I’m trying to do is improve my future prospects at a cost.
Do you think that I want leave university with major debt??????
I'll tell you where money is being wasted - the dole office or as it is now known 'Job Seekers Allowance'????
I'd just like to say that you should think before you make statements that you have never had any experience of.

i personally do not think that all students are a waste of time/space its the attitude that graduates have to those who didnt do uni it even extends to us polytechnic attendees. times engineers and i use the term loosley make silly suggestions then retort with 'oh but you only attended poly' when i correct the suggestions they made does years of on site experience count for nothing to these muppets.

[Bogwoppit]

I would also like to add that these days a Degree is becoming an entry-level qualification for most roles instead of a benchmark of a potential Employee's ability to do the job and get it done. A degree should mark a person as someone worthy of employment, a future leader if you like. Not Johnny need a job whose spent some time in Big school.

I work in IT and someone else pointed out that its peculiar industry, in that Degree's can be meaningless at a support level. Fine if you’re a programmer but for a 1st or 2nd line Engineers, just starting out it means diddly. BTW your average good engineer will be paid around 25k after a year or so of starting work and any course you could take at Uni will be out of date by the time you’ve completed it, 3-4 years is a long time in IT.

A degree should say “hey I am good, I am intelligent, I work hard and you need me” It shouldn’t say “Hey I am Joe average whose got a degree cos everyone else does as well and it seemed like a good idea at the time”. Anyone remember how respected A levels used to be? I rest my case.

BTW If you do work hard and you do deserve your Degree good luck to you. You deserve it. If your like my sister who wasted her way through 3 years of pointless apparent study and left with a 3rd in Town planning and now works as a Administrator. Oh well. BTW BTW I have nothing against Admins. You just shouldn’t need a degree to be one.