Creationism Vs Evolution - where do we come from?

[nigelH]

Originally Posted by rooster

Those that try to reconcile evolutionary evidence with their own religious beliefs would argue that God works his hand slowly and continually.

Hummm.
I would argue that the world wasn't made for your personal benefit so don't be surprised when it turns out that way.

Be wary about confusing religion (opiate of the masses etc.) and really understanding what is going on in the universe. Christianity, my branch, has been in trouble ever since the late 200s AD when Constaine, Emperor of the Eastern part of the Roman Empire, nationalised the church. Then it became a good career choice if you couldn't get into the civil service. Up until then the immanent prospect of being ejected abruptly from this life by the civil authorities tended to filter out the wannabees from the believers.

Sheesh. I have it so easy....

[rooster]

"I would argue that the world wasn't made for your personal benefit so don't be surprised when it turns out that way"

Not sure how this relates to evolutionary evidence in the context of the Bible's Creation fable/ story/ myth?

My recommendations for answering 'why do bad things happen' is to read Frankl's 'Man's Search for Meaning'. 'Who will cry when you die' is another good book to bring perspective to the meaning of life.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the Creationist/ Evolutionary argument.......

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by DanE

And like most people, I don't know the answer. But if there is a God, then how did God come into being?

He/she/it was alive before big-bang. It gave "life" to the universe and in so doing destroyed itself, the ultimate act of selflessness. We are here due to random events and nothing more, as are the algae in the ice on Europa (when we find them).

Since no evidence exists of what was before big-bang we can never know what the "creator" was like, but it was made of energy which is now "frozen" into matter, of which everything (inc Homo Sap) is made. We are truly the children of the creator.

Now there's a nice theory that satisfies everyone (exept Garf's missus).

Have a nice day (it might be your last).

Chris

[Foggy]

If we accept evolution, at least as far as adaptation to the local conditions or "survival of the fittest" goes, then consider modern medicine:-

Penicillin kills say 99.99% of bugs; what happens?:-

1. the surviving bugs evolve into superbugs that we cannot control, and

2. the Human Race looses its ability to evolve into a specis with natural resistance!!

Look into history to see what happens when bugs/ viruses / diseases are introduced to groups of humans with no natural resistance......... massive population decline. Take this a stage furhter and you get an extinction event.

The only scientific answer is to stop all medical treatments including flu vaccine, oh and stop cleaning with bleach or anything, otherwise we're all gonna die!!!

Just my 2p
Cheers, Paul

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Foggy

If we accept evolution, at least as far as adaptation to the local conditions or "survival of the fittest" goes, then consider modern medicine:-

Penicillin kills say 99.99% of bugs; what happens?:-

1. the surviving bugs evolve into superbugs that we cannot control, and

2. the Human Race looses its ability to evolve into a specis with natural resistance!!

Look into history to see what happens when bugs/ viruses / diseases are introduced to groups of humans with no natural resistance......... massive population decline. Take this a stage furhter and you get an extinction event.

The only scientific answer is to stop all medical treatments including flu vaccine, oh and stop cleaning with bleach or anything, otherwise we're all gonna die!!!

Just my 2p
Cheers, Paul

Correct.

MRSA or the "superbug" is already with us. More will follow.

Hom Sap is running counter to evolution as medical science allows us to reproduce outside normal biological limits and keeps alive those examples of our species that should have died without intervention. We are "de-evolving".

But don't worry.

We will have screwed the environment long before this.

Chris

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by rickles23

If we were made by a 'Supreme Being' why all the design flaws?

For the all too objectionable and frightening alternative, a depiction of man as 'the finished article' without 'design flaws', read the allegorical work by Aldous Huxley's 'A Brave New World', and be afraid, be very afraid...

Originally Posted by Rickles23

So far in my life I have had:
appendix out
teeth filled/pulled out
spectacles/contact lenses
ingrown toenails just to name a few.

Hardly proof positive of there not being a Supreme Being, now is it? Just think of it as the replacing of 'worn parts' and you should be able to come to terms with your cosmetic 'loss'. And with or without a Supreme Being, who ever said that every working model (human) was going be 'fit for purpose'? That is the joke behind Sir Thomas More's book Eutopia - the word itself actually means 'does not exist', and rather we have a dystopia with all its human failings, egos and fragilities. How we get through that is a metre of how we meet our end - treat others as you treat yourself or, in Biblical parlance "love others as I have loved you". What stronger and more pertinent message - in the world in which we live - can there ever be?

Originally Posted by Rickles23

If, as many religions say, there is only one god why are there so many religious wars?

Ah, this old chestnut: 'religious wars' is the nom de guerre (no pun intended) which man has bestowed, all too conveniently and in an effort to suit himself and salve his conscience in an effort to understand and justify these wars, upon these very human failings - human wars planned, fought and prosecuted by man. God never directed, commanded or requested a war of any type - other than, perhaps, a 'war' on sin. Sin can be corrected with a simple change in your attitude and behaviour - not with weapons, the use of which, it could be argued, in their own right, are a sin.

Any war fought was never truly fought in the name of religion (even though at the time and with the latter day pressage of time by historians looking for a convenient tag with which to label it): God said to St Peter (who was a fisherman) "Go and become 'fishers of men'" - in other words, go and make converts (by setting example via your words, wisdom and actions) of the largely - at the time - non-Christian masses; in other words, go win hearts-n-minds for me. You don't win hearts-n-minds of anyone by wandering over the hill and declaring war on and then butchering them; they tend to resent that Bush & Iraq, anyone?

And I hate to rain on parades, and this is expressly not a pop at anyone, especially my good friend Davey Willo, but the so-called 'Davinci Code' is a signal work of fiction; a latterday airport novel derived by a student and acolyte of the authors of the book below: itself based on a pseudo-plausible yet admittedly, by its authors, conjectured (ergo unlinked and unproven) premise. What might make sensational reading and a good thriller is still precisely that - a work of fiction and nothing more than a cod-Indian Jones-type romp relying on folks' lack of a grasp of any real understanding of history, or of the religion it seeks to misrepresent.

Originally Posted by Rickles23

In the martial art of Ninjutsu we are able to worship a god if we want to but there is no pressure to do so.

rickles23

Proper religions, indeed those of any worth, do not seek to use pressure to instruct you how to conduct yourself: they rely on example and persuassion and the knowledge that there has to be a spiritual element to life, and not merely the instant gratification of the material sense as bombards us daily through a whole host of media trying to sell us our path to personal Nirvana, whilst instructing us in the wanton fallacy that we can 'have it all' and that we are, as individuals (i.e. pandering to and selling the selfishness concept in their efforts for flog us their wares) the most important thing in the world. Without us having a sense and understanding of the needs of others, we are, to use the vernacular, 'fucked' and destined to some level of misery.

There's a lot of woolly thinking in the world, and these books rely on and take advantage of that wholesale lack of knowledge to make their respective buck.

Judge a man by his material sense (££ $$) and you'll always be left either wanting or feeling smug - in that you'll either have more or less than he.

Judge him by his true worth (his values and actions) and you begin to see how you might make your life a little more peaceful and tolerable.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Mr T.

Judge a man by his material sense (££ $$) and you'll always be left either wanting or feeling smug - in that you'll either have more or less than he.

Judge him by his true worth (his values and actions) and you begin to see how you might make your life a little more peaceful and tolerable.

Wise words. All the better in that they require no gods.

However, I would prefer "evaluate" rather than "judge". If that's OK with everyone?

Chris

[Mr T.]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Wise words. All the better in that they require no gods.

However, I would prefer "evaluate" rather than "judge". If that's OK with everyone?

Chris

Now Chris,

please don't go getting all semantic and PC on me!

If it looks like a dog and barks, guess what, it's probably a dog!

[rickles23]

Originally Posted by Mr T.

"Any war fought was never truly fought in the name of religion (even though at the time and with the latter day pressage of time by historians looking for a convenient tag with which to label it)"

There were many wars fought not only in the name of religion but lead by the then Pope.

Regards

rickles23

[nigelH]

Originally Posted by Foggy

The only scientific answer is to stop all medical treatments including flu vaccine, oh and stop cleaning with bleach or anything, otherwise we're all gonna die!!!

LOL.

It is a common misconception that natural selection works all the time. It doesn't. It only works when the species is under pressure. Normally most animals have a good chance of raising their young and passing on their genes and only the hopless cases get weeded out. It is only when there is drought, famine, flood, or if you are a microbe antibiotics that the extra success stands out and caries the day. Looking at human beings a lot of our dumb characteristics that don't work in modern society were traits that were the reason that our ancestors lived when everybody about them died.

One day I'll write a piece on what porn tells you about hunter-gathers and brain overload but not on a diving forum.