UK Suicide Bombers responsible for London massacre

[John N]

Matt,

Sorry to hear about your colleague.

Incitement to violence is already a crime.

Incitement to religious hatred is on it's way in as well (although I have concerns about that one).

Society is a basically a contract between everyone in it to live within a particular set of rules.

In the sort of free society we have, we will never have complete protection. There will always be times when we are powerless to prevent something.

To restrict our freedoms is however counter-productive. For a start it provides a win to the people who do this sort of thing. More importantly when people get locked up without a trial it provides propaganda to recruit more terrorists (Guantanamo for instance).

[Jim Shaw]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

Dave
I'm all for free speech, but I think these people abuse that right. Where free speech crosses the boundary and incites violence, be it BNP or Muslims or football supporters or whomever then they have given up that right, by all means allow these people that right in private in discussions with their friends etc. I dont agree that freedom should be total, we can only allow freedonm to the point where it impinges on others. Matt

In my opinion you can't have "free" speech and then impose rules on it, either it's free or it's not, It's like saying someone is "a little bit pregnant", you either are or you are not.

Up until a few years ago I would always have said that we should all have free speech, until the morons from the mosques started to come out screaming onto the steets that they want to kill british subjects, Which should obviously not be allowed to happen, but if we do not allow them to rant then we do not have truly free speech.
I am no longer sure if we should have free speech, with all that it entails.

In this namby pamby politically correct society that we live, we the ordinary british people are now so afraid to say out loud what we truly feel, through fear of raceism, ageism, sexism, and every other kind of ism.

As with (I suspect) many other people I truly think that this country has gone down the drain, and as with every other thing which goes down the drains, it has to cleaned up, all the bad bits taken out, and recycled so we can enjoy it once again.

[MATTBIN]

Originally Posted by John Nortcliff

Matt,

Sorry to hear about your colleague.

Incitement to violence is already a crime.

Incitement to religious hatred is on it's way in as well (although I have concerns about that one).

Society is a basically a contract between everyone in it to live within a particular set of rules.

In the sort of free society we have, we will never have complete protection. There will always be times when we are powerless to prevent something.

To restrict our freedoms is however counter-productive. For a start it provides a win to the people who do this sort of thing. More importantly when people get locked up without a trial it provides propaganda to recruit more terrorists (Guantanamo for instance).

Surely though John if someone breaks that contract they no longer have protection rights under that contract. I dont believe that curtailing incitement to violence would curtail the rights of the 'average' contracted in person.

A balance has to be drawn between the rights of the individual and the rights of the population, locking up without trial may recruit more terrorists but our current policy did not prevent this outrage, so it didnt work either. Although Guantanamo may have recruited more terrorists it hasnt resulted in furter attacks within the US.

Matt

[John N]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

Surely though John if someone breaks that contract they no longer have protection rights under that contract. I dont believe that curtailing incitement to violence would curtail the rights of the 'average' contracted in person.
Matt

No that's not how it works. The contract specifies the punishments if the agreed rules (laws) are broken.
In this way everyone knows where they stand but everyone is covered by the contract whatever they do.
The important thing is that everyone is seen to be dealt with according to the agreed system.
The system can be changed by our democratically elected government which allows for a change in the contract.

As I said before, incitement to violence is ALREADY against the law.

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

A balance has to be drawn between the rights of the individual and the rights of the population, locking up without trial may recruit more terrorists but our current policy did not prevent this outrage, so it didnt work either. Although Guantanamo may have recruited more terrorists it hasnt resulted in furter attacks within the US.
Matt

We have that balance already although it shifts periodically one way or the other.

The root cause of terrorist recruitment must be addressed if we are to solve this. There might not have been another attack in the US yet, but it is only a matter of time. The more terrorists there are, the better chance that one of them will succeed in an attack.

[Mark Davies]

We already have laws preventing incitement to violence, and though not specifically set out as such, laws under the Public Order Act can be used to combat incitement to racial hatred. And we also already do detain suspected terrorists without trial.

None of these measures, which have been in place for some time, prevented these attacks.

We have a generation of disenfranchised Asian youth, who, though British born and in most cases second-generation, still do not feel welcome and don't feel a part of British society. These are our suicide bombers of the future, and we all bear some responsibility for that situation being as it is. Our Muslim communities do tend to be very polarised, especially in the larger cities. It's too simple for us to stand by and say they should make more efforts to integrate. These communities stick together for safety and comfort because they have not been made to feel welcome, and that is the fault of the wider community.

Instead of distrusting and marginalising people who we are unfamiliar with and whom we misunderstand we have to make more effort to be more welcoming. I come into contact with Asian Muslims daily through my work, mostly of Pakistani, Indian or Bengali origin, though we also have a growing community of Iraqi assylum seekers. There are always exceptions of poor behaviour, as there are in all society, but for the most part I have found the Muslim community to be warm, welcoming, generous and very moral.

Please don't let the actions of a few cloud your judgement of the many. Instead of becoming suspicious and inhospitable instead make efforts in the opposite direction. If you don't already know the Muslim families in your area try and get to know them and learn a little about their way of life. I promise you, they will be amongst the best friends you've ever made.

I think that is the way forward to solve this problem - not more legislation. And for once it's in our hands to do it, not the politicians - so it just might work!

[MATTBIN]

If its against the Law (incitement to violence) why werent the persons who were breaking it arrested, and sentenced, whatever that sentence might be.
Laws and society can only work if ALL are subjected to and bound by them.
Which clearly isnt happening presently.

Matt

[Fiji Dave]

slightly off-topic but...

I've just walked back from South Terminal - Gatwick airport (my office is based 500 yds away) and whilst there I heard the this announcement a couple of times....

"Will the owner of the brown suitcase left unattended in the arrivals hall please return to it immediately. Unattended baggage may be removed and destroyed"

How much of a muppet/moron/tw@t do you really have to be to do something like this, at this time. It beggars belief, it really does!

[Gavin Smith]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

...locking up without trial may recruit more terrorists but our current policy did not prevent this outrage, so it didnt work either. Although Guantanamo may have recruited more terrorists it hasnt resulted in furter attacks within the US.

Matt

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in a different thread. I beleive that to a greater extent attacks such as this one are un-preventable given some elements of the world political system. Sooner or later they will happen. No policy of internment can stop them. When you factor in people willing to throw away their lives to prove their point the act in itself really does become un-stoppable.

To the best of my knowledge no major terrorist organisation (and by this I exclude groups like the Red Army Faction/Bader Meinhoff) has been quelled by force of arms/anti-terrorist action.

It's like fighting against a leaking dam. You can prevent individual leaks but one day it's going to break unless you address the root cause.

In this case there may well never be a solution as several of the key players have such fundamental differences that agreement probably won't happen in our lifetimes.

Gavin

[MATTBIN]

Originally Posted by Mark Davies

We already have laws preventing incitement to violence, and though not specifically set out as such, laws under the Public Order Act can be used to combat incitement to racial hatred. And we also already do detain suspected terrorists without trial.

None of these measures, which have been in place for some time, prevented these attacks.

We have a generation of disenfranchised Asian youth, who, though British born and in most cases second-generation, still do not feel welcome and don't feel a part of British society. These are our suicide bombers of the future, and we all bear some responsibility for that situation being as it is. Our Muslim communities do tend to be very polarised, especially in the larger cities. It's too simple for us to stand by and say they should make more efforts to integrate. These communities stick together for safety and comfort because they have not been made to feel welcome, and that is the fault of the wider community.

Instead of distrusting and marginalising people who we are unfamiliar with and whom we misunderstand we have to make more effort to be more welcoming. I come into contact with Asian Muslims daily through my work, mostly of Pakistani, Indian or Bengali origin, though we also have a growing community of Iraqi assylum seekers. There are always exceptions of poor behaviour, as there are in all society, but for the most part I have found the Muslim community to be warm, welcoming, generous and very moral.

Please don't let the actions of a few cloud your judgement of the many. Instead of becoming suspicious and inhospitable instead make efforts in the opposite direction. If you don't already know the Muslim families in your area try and get to know them and learn a little about their way of life. I promise you, they will be amongst the best friends you've ever made.

I think that is the way forward to solve this problem - not more legislation. And for once it's in our hands to do it, not the politicians - so it just might work!

That is the basis of the Christian (turn the other cheek) society I think Mark and as such to be applauded, but before we all rush out and do as you say would it not be a good idea to find out WHY these people did what they did. If for example it is because they do not agree with the troops being in Iraq/Iran?Afgahnistan or wherever then what you propse will have no effect. Only when the troops are out will it cease, if indeed that is the reason, a decision probbaly the vast majority of UK residents would agree with, so they are bombing the very people who agree (in this hypothetical case) with their cause.

Both of my parents came from the East end of London, an area that saw a huge influx of imigrants, initially from Ireland and then later Jews, both of these groups suffered as have later immigrants, they didnt resolve their 'issues' by throwing bombs but by integrating into UK society. Its a 2 way street.

I totally agree that violence against the Muslims in our society is not the way forward.

Alternatively they could just be brainwashed nutters who would never listen to reasoned debate, how does embarcing the Muslim society help in that case.

Matt

[Mark Davies]

Originally Posted by MATTBIN

That is the basis of the Christian (turn the other cheek) society I think Mark and as such to be applauded, but before we all rush out and do as you say would it not be a good idea to find out WHY these people did what they did.

I think the point I am making is this . . .

The bombers were British and as such we might hope they would share the same values as the rest of our society. And yet, someone has been able to manipulate them and convince them to turn against those values and launch an horrific attack on members of 'their own' society. These men have been used by others, I'm sure of that. Without some outside influence I doubt they would ever have done this terrible thing.

For that to happen there must surely have been some latent feeling that this is in fact not 'their own' society at all - that they were marginalised by the rest of us. The real terrorists have used this. Those outside our society and who would see it destroyed have seen the potential in this disenfranchised youth and have exploited it, and convinced these young men to turn against their own. Presumably they have managed this because the young men felt (or could be made to feel) that their own had already turned against them.

To starve the extremists of their potential suicide bombers we need to make all in our society feel like they belong to it. So, instead of shutting out our Muslim communities with suspiscion, we need to be more welcoming.