UK Suicide Bombers responsible for London massacre

[Hairball]

So, it's now been accepted - officially - is anyone actually surprised?

I'm deeply saddened, genuinely worried, and dreading what this summer might throw up, particularly if it's a long and hot one.

[Mark Davies]

After only 4 days the bombers have been identified, their movements on the day of the crimes traced and their homes searched and an arrest made.

I have spent literally months working on murder enquiries before getting that kind of result. What an absolutely outstanding effort by all involved! I am truly impressed.

[Rob Evans]

After everything else that's gone on in the last few days, how many of you are utterly depressed that this sort of pointless shit is still going on.?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4677401.stm

I despair. I truly do.

[Martyn Ward]

The saddest part of it to me is that these fanatics have acheived their goal in life. By their actions they have brought death and destruction to people who's only "crime" was being in the wrong place at the wrong time and by taking their own lives in the process, they now sit at Allah's right hand, apparently, (!).

The trouble is, how can you possibly combat fanatics? These are people who have been brainwashed from birth into believing that whatever it is that they believe is the only true way in life. We've all seen 3 and 4 year old kids on the telly in places like Israel throwing stones at soldiers. Presumably this type of kid grows up to be a suicide bomber. As far as they're concerned, they've acheived everything they set out to acheive and have gained some higher glory as a reward.

What saddens me the most is the fact that man has spent countless millennia waging war on his fellow man with possibly nothing to show for it, other than a whole heap of misery. And after all the trillions of pounds/dollars spent and the years of research devoted to the art of killing each other, we can't even manage something as comparatively simple as erradicating the common cold.

Will we never learn?

Martyn.

[Jim Shaw]

Originally Posted by Rob Evans

After everything else that's gone on in the last few days, how many of you are utterly depressed that this sort of pointless shit is still going on.?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4677401.stm

I despair. I truly do.

It's the same mindless morons every year, nothing changes ( sadly )

[John N]

I wonder though whether these guys have been brainwashed from birth? They were after all British born and this shows that we have a bigger problem than terrorists coming in from outside the country.

The Israel - Palestine issue is another question entirely. It's a debate that needs it's own thread along with another one to discuss the differing views of people as terrorists or freedom fighters in various situations.

I'm afraid that the main problem as far as I'm concerned is religion. the cause of most wars and conflicts throughout history. It is apparent that these days most religious people are peaceful, however religion gives extremists a powerful lever to use on people who believe.

Perhaps without religion people would find another reason to fight but it has been the basis (or excuse) for war for thousands of years.

The social implications of British born muslims doing this are huge. There is already tension in British society from the rapid integration (or not) of other cultures and this will just make things worse.

The other extremists (the BNP) are already trying to make political capital from this atrocity. I'm afraid that this will succeed amongst those who already think that 'they should all be sent home' but also amongst others who are tired of demands to change their culture and way of life to accomodate other cultures.

This is not to say that I agree with that view, simply an observation of British (and European) society as it currently stands. Look at the situation in the Netherlands or France for more evidence.

We probably need yet another thread to discuss the social implications of immigration and whether real integration is the answer or a 'ghetto' mentality and segregated religious (religion again) schools are a good idea.

It is a very big topic indeed with many factors to consider.

I have to disagree though that man has nothing to show from warfare but misery.
It has had several benefits, not least the massive technological advances that occurred as a result of military spending but then were used in civilian life.

Perhaps perversely I suspect that many of our medical advances were born out of the knowledge of injuries sustained on the battlefield and the necessity to keep soldiers alive and fighting.

Another one of course is the basic Darwinist 'fittest survive' where those who have succeeded in war through strength or guile have fathered future generations.

Having said all that, I have also been impressed by the speed with which the security services and the police have moved on this one.

[dry suit diver]

with reference to the new law our wonderful government wants to bring in to make it an offence for 'mad mullahs' to incite hatred/bombing -did the government not include this in the already planned religious incitement bill?

[SoggyFox]

It deeply saddens me that british youth see fit to commit murder in the name of religion. I wonder if anything can truly be done, the general islam faith is one of tolerance and caring much the same as any other religion but unfortunately twisted by some to their own ends. I don't see an end to this type of terrorism, it seems to me to be a case of trying to hold water, the tighter you grip the more you lose.

I see the only way forward being a conserted effort by the muslim community to somehow stamp this out. Although i make no suggestions how they do this as i understand the likely suspects of this latest attack were seen as " normal lads ". Its a world wide phenomenon and these terrorist freely cross borders with impunity and only world wide can this be addressed.

as a philospher once said " only the dead have seen the end of war "

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by John Nortcliff

...I'm afraid that the main problem as far as I'm concerned is religion. the cause of most wars and conflicts throughout history. ...

Whilst (as ever) you and I agree John, I thing absolutism is perhaps a better way to express it. Anyone who believes a thousand+ year-old document is "infallible" clearly needs to be institutionalised. The website quoted by the Helium thread made me laugh - dinosaurs and man co-existed, the earth cannot be as old as it is as the moon is too close to it, etc. People this stupid still have a vote!

As you say when somone believes this guff they will do anything, firm in the belief that what they do is "right". Thankfully the anti-abortionist terrorists in the US have not yet re-started their attrocities, but with the Supreme Court elections I fear we can expect this to happen soon.

Clearly though it is not just religion. ETA for example are not a religious group but still feel the need to kill people because they believe their view of Europe is right and therefore whatever they do is "justified". They are IMHO absolutist - there is only one outcome they will accept. A semi-autonomous Basque region will not placate them, nor will the compromises that are needed to give the region some degree of self-governance.

Perhaps then this is better described as "tribalism" than religion?

With that let us all hope with all our hearts that "tribalism" does not lead to a backlash against the Muslim communities in the UK. Let's hope that people are smart enough to understand the difference between the absolutist fanatics and the secular religious. Let's hope this is the end of stupid violence in 2005. I doubt it will be however.

My sympathies to the innocent, my compliments to the Police and my utter condemnation to the terrorists lying dead, cold and dissapointed that all they believed was bollocks.

Chris

[MATTBIN]

British by birth perhaps but not by their nature. They are no more fit to be called British than they are Muslims, we (the British) are praised for our tolerance of others in our own country. We (the British) accept religions into our midst openly, we accept cultures openly. These people have given up the right to be called British, Muslim or even Human.

One of my colleagues was blown up by these bastards, his only crime was that he too couldnt get on the Underground so he caught the bus that copped it. Its my belief that the bomb on there was due to go off with the others but in error the clock was 1 hour out. So he was doubly unlucky that day. I knew him quite well, a nicer young man you wouldnt wish to meet, cut down in his prime as he looked into a bright future.

France I believe has a law that allows for the locking up of suspected terrorists without any do gooder interference regarding human rights, we should introduce the same, round up these heathens that incite violence outside their mosques and jail them.

Matt