Divers in Square Boxes

[Digger]

I have never ever ever met anyone (and I have met a lot of people at this stage) who has 60 dives under their belt who I would want to start training as a DM. Apologies fi that sounds bad, and puts anyone off, but it's true. I've met a fair few with 100 dives who I'd happily train to do it, but it would be 50 dives before they qualified. I don't believe that you can learn enough to go from decent rescue diver to decent divemaster in less than 50 dives.

Digs.

[And]

Hi

There are people with less than a hundred dives that I have dived with and had great dives, and are very sorted in the water, and there are those with hundreds of dives that I wouldn't walk in the rain with, never mind dive, because their attitude is all wrong.

Scuba diving, and especially scuba diving of the internet kind, seems to attract the more egotistical personality.

From a dive masters point of view, which I perceive to be either helping people with courses, or guiding dives in places like the Red Sea, your typical audience isn't the kind of diver who posts on the internet, so I would pay little attention to those who would criticise without knowing you or the kinds of dives you are doing whilst 'divemastering' if that is such a word.

Andy

[purple vonny]

Originally Posted by Digger

I have never ever ever met anyone (and I have met a lot of people at this stage) who has 60 dives under their belt who I would want to start training as a DM. Digs.

Well I have.

One girl I did my IDC and IE with had 60 dives when I met her and she was fantastic. Skill wise she was perfect, she was a brilliant DM and she sailed through her instructor's course. She's a damn fine instructor too.

If you never met anyone with 60 dives who was good enough to be a DM you must have dived with a huge number of numpties Digs. No offence.

[And]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

If you never met anyone with 60 dives who was good enough to be a DM you must have dived with a huge number of numpties Digs. No offence.

They were probably taught by himself or Woz

Andy

[big_si]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

One girl I did my IDC and IE with had 60 dives when I met her and she was fantastic. Skill wise she was perfect, she was a brilliant DM and she sailed through her instructor's course. She's a damn fine instructor too.

Perhaps she's the exception rather than the rule though?


Hmmm... Jealous... Moi?

[purple vonny]

There are no rules that's why it is a PITA that there is all this generalisation.

[Digger]

Or maybe I set the bar a bit higher than most.

Damned fine diver maybe, but what has she seen? What can possibly have happened in that 60 dives that prepares you for what divers do when they are under pressure, in an alien environment, and have no idea how they can solve problems for themselves.

I have dived with a great many very very good divers. I have dived with people who went from novice to very good divers that would be on my boat, but they weren't DM quality after 60 dives.

FWIW, I don;t thikn you have to be the best diver in the world to be an instructor. But diving should be second nature. You should not have to think about anything that you do underwater. You should be able to move effortlessly, have all your gear squared away completely, be able to react and prevent problems before they happen. That doesn't happen in 60 dives to anyone, and anyone who claims they've reached that point after 60 dives wants to spend a day with some of my guys. Oh, and a video camera so there can't be the usual "I don't do that" discussion that you only tend to have with people with not many dives. They think because it feels like they're doing something right that they are. Most of them don't know how diving is supposed to feel in the first place. It comes from everything coming together all at once. That moment where you realise you are completely relaxed, everything is working just as it should be, you are in control of your surroundings, and anything you want to do underwater is second nature. It takes years, and then you have a road to Damascus moment. I had the moment with single tanks in a shortie after about 200 dives, I had the same thing with twins after about 300 dives, and the moment with rebreathers is still coming. I don't think it's far off, maybe it will happen in Scapa. It nearly happened on the first day of my Mod 1 assessment the other week, but then I had a crappy second day that showed me that wasn't the moment. It will come. And when it does I would be comfortable being a rebreather instructor. But as I'm not an instructor for OC at the minute really I think that's a bit of a leap I don't want to take right now. Plus it would cost a fortune and there's no money in it. But that moment could also be 2 or 3 years away, and I wouldn't know necessarily. I could feel like I was almost there for a long time. And the only thing to change in that time will be experience.

Digs.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by big_si

Perhaps she's the exception rather than the rule though?

Dont think she is the exception, but I'd guess that she did the whole lot at
the same location.

If you start diving with an outfit, go onto do your AOW, then Rescue and
notch up the dives, then the dive school and area becomes your home.
You relax at home and yes your skills etc. become/are good. As the 60
odd dives are on the same sites, it's not surprising that you know them, so
can be a good guide.

As a certified assistant courses are a doddle cause you ae working with the
same Instructor that taught you (raport?). Get a problem and you know
where the spares are and what routine the dive school has.

Because you have been "absorbed" into that enviroment and can interact
and ask questions etc. even when you are not at work, it is possible to
become a good DM even with just 60 dives. Even if you now change the
location, that confidence is all about learning a new site/routine. The job
role and skillbase has been established.

Ok what if these 60 were done at a variety of locations?
You could say that such variety makes for a better DM, more experience
etc. trouble is IMO that a lot of the subleties are not taken on in the same
way and the prospective DM doesnt relax.

So yes this DM will get signed up at 60 dives, but wont know the sites, the
center or be as confident. In this instance I'd be far more reluctant to rely
on this individual and would have preffered more dives to cover the shortfall.

Problem is that both divers are now DM's and both have a black pro-card
with PADI pro number.

So who is ok and is 60 ok?

IMO yes, not because I personally believe its enough, but because the
school or center would be remiss if they didnt have a short-term contract
where they could check him/her out.

Anybody can call themselves a DM. I was one for a week lol, but like any
diver grade. Pinch of salt until proven otherwise.

[Okeanos]

I don't blame anyone for wanting to increase their knowledge or skill at anything.

2 things get at me though.

1) PADI's use of Advanced diver for someone with as little as 9 dives, Dive Master for someone with 60 and the term Master Scuba Diver!! It takes years at Uni for someone to achieve the term Master!!

2) A lot of PADI DM's I've met, here and abroad, have no idea what it's like to dive in varying conditions. Perhaps Quarry master or Red Sea master is more suitable. Also a lot I have met, because they have the title of Dive Master, think they know it all.

I have met some very good and knowlegeable DM's, but unfortunately met more twats.

Everyone should dive a lot and not be bothered about their qualification.

[Juz]

I was going to stay out of this, but have now changed my mind. You can be a good divemaster with only 60 dives, if you have some life experience behind you. However, I do not consider 'most' divemasters to be experienced rounded divers.

PADI OWSI one - completed 400 dives, but only in lakes - this is a real person! Can this person effectively discuss 'real world' tides and conditions out at sea. Of course not.

I think that a pre-requisite of a variety of types of diving should be in place before someone can become a person responsible for other peoples safety. I think that you should have to show a high degree of stress management too - this is something that DIR training does very well.

I do not think someone should be judged by number of dives, nor by their qualification level, however, many many people are racing through training and collecting badges - these people will at some point have a 'bite on the butt' moment and may not be able to deal with it.

In my mind, there is only one qualification - if someone is to dive with someone I care about, then I want to be confident that they will not endanger them and that they can cope will all conditions the dive could possibly throw at them. Until that point, they are just a trainee!

You may not like what Digger is saying, or perhaps how he is saying it, but take it from me, his skills in the water are second to none and you would do well to, at the very least, shut up and listen to what he has to say. Once you have his level of experience in terms of depth, gases, equipment, dive conditions and have actually been involved in real rescues, then we'll see how you feel, until then, let's see some humility!


Juz