Human Rights?

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by Geoff Milne

I don't see the point?

What, that an adult should continue to be punished for a crime he comitted when he was a child, even though he's served his sentence? How many people do you know who never broke the law as a child?

There are, of course, degrees of offfence. This one was heinous, but if that's the argument then there are all sorts of problems with where to draw the line.

Originally Posted by Geoff Milne

The justification would be that a foreign national has commited a murder, and as a nation we should have the right to determine whether they say in this country or not. This case is based on the HRA which is patently flawed. "If someone is resident (legally) for 10 yrs, they cannot be deported unless a risk to National Security". Crap legislation.

It's hardly in the same league as an adult Albanian people trafficker who's murdered somebody. Remember that this person was a child. He's served his sentence.

This brings us to an interesting point - what is prison for? Just for punishment? If so, is the punishment over when the sentence has been served? Did the original judge put a tariff on the sentence that mentioned deportation?

I think prison serves several functions; punishment, prevention from re-offending, rehabilitation, and society's revenge. In this case, what do you think has been achieved?

Punishment? Seems so, but not enough for everybody's taste.
Rehabilitation? Apparently successful. There seems to be a belief that he'll not re-offend.
Prevention from re-offending? Well, as far as I know he didn't kill anybody else.
Revenge? Not enough, obviously, but that's a matter for the original trial judge and not the tabloid press.

Originally Posted by Geoff Milne

As opposed to the rights of the victims and their families? I think they should always get precedence.

There's always a balance to be struck. It will ALWAYS seem that victims' families get a raw deal unless stoneing is suddenly re-introduced. Now the only group widely in favour if that are those calling for a global Caliphate. We know how popular they are.

[Pigpen]

Originally Posted by chrisch

He like you is European, an EU citizen, not foreign at all. If he was American or Swiss then yes send him home, they are keen enough to do it to us.

Chris

An EU citizen yes, but still a 'foreign national',i.e does not have a UK passport.

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by chrisch

He like you is European, an EU citizen, not foreign at all. If he was American or Swiss then yes send him home, they are keen enough to do it to us.

EU citizens do not have the same rights as UK citizens. They can't vote in Parliamentary elections for a start. They can be deported. The Germans deported plenty of EU citizens during the last World Cup.

Jason

[hogen-deifar]

Originally Posted by MarkP

What, that an adult should continue to be punished for a crime he comitted when he was a child, even though he's served his sentence? How many people do you know who never broke the law as a child?

There's always a balance to be struck. It will ALWAYS seem that victims' families get a raw deal unless stoneing is suddenly re-introduced. Now the only group widely in favour if that are those calling for a global Caliphate. We know how popular they are.

And until you're the victim of a truly heinous crime you'll always feel like that, however if you do become a victim you will learn to live with the crime but you will serve a sentence because of it for life. It never really leaves you. Not totally.

[Jacq]

I saw Phillip Lawrence's widow on TV this morning. What a heart wrenching discussion that was. I can see both sides - she was promised deportation by the judge - her words not mine - and he is entitled to human rights law but do kjnow that victim's are victims for life and the perpetrator (sp?) doesn't appear to
have to suffer all through life.

IMHO I think I am on her side that I wouldn't want my children walking in the same country as their father's murderer.

Interesting discussion.

[Jacq]

I saw Phillip Lawrence's widow on TV this morning. What a heart wrenching discussion that was. I can see both sides - she was promised deportation by the judge - her words not mine - and he is entitled to human rights law but do kjnow that victim's are victims for life and the perpetrator (sp?) doesn't appear to
have to suffer all through life.

IMHO I think I am on her side that I wouldn't want my children walking in the same country as their father's murderer.

Interesting discussion.

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by hogen-deifar

And until you're the victim of a truly heinous crime you'll always feel like that, however if you do become a victim you will learn to live with the crime but you will serve a sentence because of it for life. It never really leaves you. Not totally.

I believe you. I hope that I will never experience it. I suspect that if something like that were to happen to me I would want nothing more than to rip out the throat of whoever did it.

However, this sort of thing has happend to people close to me. It's terrible and I've seen a parent's life destroyed by the murder of his son. What really damaged this man was that his son's killer wasn't convicted.

I still don't accept that a fifteen year old's crime should stick with him for life. That's a bit too Old Testament for me.

[Pigpen]

Originally Posted by MarkP

What, that an adult should continue to be punished for a crime he comitted when he was a child, even though he's served his sentence? How many people do you know who never broke the law as a child?

Not murderers! And as far as the 'child' goes, he was a 15 year old who was beating up (as part of a gang) a younger child, and was carrying a knife which he used to stab Philip Lawrence. Not exactly childlike behaviour.

Originally Posted by MarkP

It's hardly in the same league as an adult Albanian people trafficker who's murdered somebody. Remember that this person was a child. He's served his sentence.

I don't see the difference. A murder is a murder! And again, your child reference I believe is spurious.

Originally Posted by MarkP

This brings us to an interesting point - what is prison for? Just for punishment? If so, is the punishment over when the sentence has been served? Did the original judge put a tariff on the sentence that mentioned deportation?

I doubt that in 1995 it was deemed necessary as the HRA wasn't in place (I don't think). I may be wrong.

Originally Posted by MarkP

I think prison serves several functions; punishment, prevention from re-offending, rehabilitation, and society's revenge. In this case, what do you think has been achieved?

Originally Posted by MarkP

Punishment? Seems so, but not enough for everybody's taste.
Rehabilitation? Apparently successful. There seems to be a belief that he'll not re-offend.
Prevention from re-offending? Well, as far as I know he didn't kill anybody else.
Revenge? Not enough, obviously, but that's a matter for the original trial judge and not the tabloid press.

I'm not trying to get into a prison - punishment vs rehabilitation discussion. If after his sentence is served he is deemed to be safe, and is released then fine. But do not allow him to hide behind legislation and suggest that he shouldn't have his rights infringed, when the Lawrence family will never 'serve' their sentence.

Originally Posted by MarkP

There's always a balance to be struck. It will ALWAYS seem that victims' families get a raw deal unless stoneing is suddenly re-introduced. Now the only group widely in favour if that are those calling for a global Caliphate. We know how popular they are.

Don't know why you refer to stoning, island where criminals are sent etc. I'm not suggesting that at all.

[hogen-deifar]

Originally Posted by MarkP

I still don't accept that a fifteen year old's crime should stick with him for life. That's a bit too Old Testament for me.

Whether he's 15 or 55, his crime WILL stick with the victim for life. Where's the justice in that? The victims do have a life sentence. And society should NEVER forget that. There isn't a day that goes by when it isn't remembered. You may not cry or grieve every day, but you remember. And sometimes you remember as vividly as the day it happened. The victims are innocent yet serve a life sentence.

And 5 years after the event I bumped into the guy who did this to my family. He smirked at me. He was 15 when it happened and was 20 and he smirked knowingly at me.

Forgive me for being "Old Testament" won't you?

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by hogen-deifar

Forgive me for being "Old Testament" won't you?

Of course.