How much do we spend on these people?

[gtm]

lime pit in every town thats the answer and one at
every port while we,re at it

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by yazzyfooty

Plenty here in England that can and dont work so what is the difference? Us on YD are so lucky eh we must all be in employment or have some sort of private income and of course none of us have ever claimed benefits of any sort. Aren't we just bloody fantastic!!

Threads like this one so piss me off!! Lets slag a group down so we can make ourselves feel so much superior then anyone else!! My shit stinks and i bet so does everyone elses, so always remember that!

Hear, hear!

What I like best is that nobody hear ever moans about, say, city bonuses or high level tax avoidance and fruad.

The anti benefit fraud posters that crop up on bus shelters target a group whose shifty dealings are estimated to cost the country £850,000,000. Lots of money, until you realise that there are no posters in Canary Wharf warning city types to beware the investigators. Of course, dubious tax avoidance and evasion schemes only cost the country somewhere between £90,000,000,000 and £130,000,000,000 according to the treasury.

Sod it, let's give the poor a really good kicking, just in case any of them get uppity. None of them needs that DVD player or pint as long as I can have my third and fourth homes.

To the boss of Barclays: don't worry mate, I understand that you truly NEED that £22,000,000 bonus. At least I appreciate your work.

[gobfish1]

Originally Posted by yazzyfooty

#

Plenty here in England that can and dont work so what is the difference? Us on YD are so lucky eh we must all be in employment or have some sort of private income and of course none of us have ever claimed benefits of any sort. Aren't we just bloody fantastic!!

Threads like this one so piss me off!! Lets slag a group down so we can make ourselves feel so much superior then anyone else!! My shit stinks and i bet so does everyone elses, so always remember that!

i have never claimed benefits of any sort ,

and you still get a big from me , FFS thalk about snobs, / nobs

[purple vonny]

Originally Posted by gobfish1

i have never claimed benefits of any sort ,

and you still get a big from me , FFS thalk about snobs, / nobs

A snob or a nob?

I don't think an intelligent and realistic discussion of a major social problem is out of order. As long as people discuss it rationally and don't shout "shoot the lot of them".

A balanced arguement is always interesting as long as people base their opinions on reality and not on biased ranting.

[SilvaFish]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

I spent 15 years helping those on benefits to be indepent financially, build up self-esteem, and become motivated.

It's not a case of slagging off a whole group, there are some that want to, and do, get back to work. But, for me, it became a losing battle. Asessing people psychologically, physically and socially showed that a lot of long term unemployed (and "sick") had enormous problems, not only with health and low confidence, but mainly with financial aspects of returning to work.

What is the point of minimum wage when you can get more in benefits? With all the extras on top, many of my patients and clients were netting more than I was working full time to help them. I got to the point where I thought, "well, I can't blame you".
It is only during the last few years that the govenrment started to come up with ideas like Pathways to Work. But people are not going to go to work unless they feel motivated to do so. Increasing motivation is possible, we ran courses to do just that. But many people failed to turn up for the classes!!!

I have my own ideas about what should be done. But for some, who have been unemployed for a long time, it is too late to change the mind set.

It is interesting that long term sickness and disability (particularly from back pain, and more recently minor mental health problems) has risen exponentially, year on year, for 20 years. Yet as a nation, we are no sicker generally.

I do have a degree of sympathy for many of those stuck in the benefit trap.
As for alcoholics and drug abusers, there but for the grace of God go I. But we really need a major shake up of government policy to help those who can work to get work and STAY in work. And those who truly can't work, for whatever reason, will still be taken care of by a fair system.

Well said Vonny, and agree with it all, especially the bold bit. What incentive is there for someone to go to work for the minimum wage, especially those that don't have a great education or skills, to go to work?

As for benefits system, yes, it's a good idea - of course it is. There will always be a few that cannot work for geniune reasons, but unfortunatley on the flipside, there will be those that will take the mickey.

It's those that take the mickey that really wind me up.

[Paul Brookes]

Originally Posted by MarkP

Hear, hear!

What I like best is that nobody hear ever moans about, say, city bonuses or high level tax avoidance and fruad.

The anti benefit fraud posters that crop up on bus shelters target a group whose shifty dealings are estimated to cost the country £850,000,000. Lots of money, until you realise that there are no posters in Canary Wharf warning city types to beware the investigators. Of course, dubious tax avoidance and evasion schemes only cost the country somewhere between £90,000,000,000 and £130,000,000,000 according to the treasury.

Sod it, let's give the poor a really good kicking, just in case any of them get uppity. None of them needs that DVD player or pint as long as I can have my third and fourth homes.

To the boss of Barclays: don't worry mate, I understand that you truly NEED that £22,000,000 bonus. At least I appreciate your work.

How did a disdussion about able bodied people sponging off the state (and therefore from all tax payers) turn into an anti wealth argument?

I didn't come from a priviliged background, I left school at 16 and worked insome very low paid jobs before carving a career for myself. I have worked extremely hard to get to a point where I pay an accountant to advise me on the most tax effecient way of managing my income (this is not tax evasion - that would be illegal). I do earn over the average wage but I'm not rich - I don't have a 2nd home or 3 cars. Do I feel guilty for having skills that employers are willing to pay a lot of money for? No. Why should I? I worked damn hard to get where I am. I made a decission not to pi$$ my life away and make something of it.
Do I get annoyed that people abuse a welfare system that I help to fund. Absolutely. It's theft. It pi$$es me off that I have to work bl00dy hard to earn the money to buy TVs, cars or a house while others expect luxuries without any effort on their part.
If I earn £50m next year, I will pay (a lot) more tax. They are still stealing.

I'm not against a welfare system. There are many genuinely vulnerable people who need support, but it absolutely needs to be better managed. Being able to work but chosing not to because of the amount of benefits you are receiving is simply wrong. If you are able to work, you should not be getting benefits.

Did the boss of Barclays deserve is massive bonus? I don't know. The companys shareholders obviously thought so though and I'm sure the treasury got a slice of it as well.

People earning a lot of money do so for a reason. Most are not "lucky", they have worked hard to get where they are - and they pay their way.

Paul

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by Paul Brookes

Did the boss of Barclays deserve is massive bonus? I don't know. The companys shareholders obviously thought so though and I'm sure the treasury got a slice of it as well.

Did he deserve it? That's a hard one - seriously. I don't see how somebody can justify a bonus that's enough money to build a small hospital. Nobody needs that much money.

However, I do understand the need to feel valued. That's why F1 stars get paid so much, otherwise they'd do it for nothing if their rides were competitive.

I doubt the small shareholders think it's a hugely good plan. The renumeration committees (with the backing of pension fund shareholders) undoubtedly do, but there's a huge ammount of backscratching that goes on there. Think of the number of CEOs who've presided over company collapses and then walked away having trousered a few million as a thank you.

Originally Posted by Paul Brookes

People earning a lot of money do so for a reason. Most are not "lucky", they have worked hard to get where they are - and they pay their way.

I disagree (to an extent) here. I suspect that most people in the super-rich category have had a very healthy start to life, usually involving the correct school tie. Sure, some then work hard, but the privileged start in life gives them a huge advantage over others. Given equal attitudes, an ex-Etonian will do better than somebody from a sink estate.

Some of the super-rich lie. Look at the way Al-Fayed managed to acquire loans etc.

I absolutely disagree about paying their way. You're obviously not rich enough to enjoy the off-shore status that the truly rich do. See the example above.

[Paul Brookes]

Originally Posted by MarkP

Did he deserve it? That's a hard one - seriously. I don't see how somebody can justify a bonus that's enough money to build a small hospital. Nobody needs that much money.

However, I do understand the need to feel valued. That's why F1 stars get paid so much, otherwise they'd do it for nothing if their rides were competitive.

I doubt the small shareholders think it's a hugely good plan. The renumeration committees (with the backing of pension fund shareholders) undoubtedly do, but there's a huge ammount of backscratching that goes on there. Think of the number of CEOs who've presided over company collapses and then walked away having trousered a few million as a thank you.



I disagree (to an extent) here. I suspect that most people in the super-rich category have had a very healthy start to life, usually involving the correct school tie. Sure, some then work hard, but the privileged start in life gives them a huge advantage over others. Given equal attitudes, an ex-Etonian will do better than somebody from a sink estate.

Some of the super-rich lie. Look at the way Al-Fayed managed to acquire loans etc.

I absolutely disagree about paying their way. You're obviously not rich enough to enjoy the off-shore status that the truly rich do. See the example above.

OK. In terms of the super rish, I concede it is not something I am that familiar with and no doubt there are rule breakers. If they are breaking the law then they should be punished. If they are taking advantage of a legal option to them, then good for them. If it is unjust then the law should change.
That super rich category must only account of a tiny % of the population though. For the vast majority of people, most work hard for their lifestyles, pay taxes and IMO have a right to feel agrieved that those taxes are being spent (in some cases) to make life comfortable for people who can't be bothered to work.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but to me if you want something, work for it. Beer, cigarettes, playstations, a car are not rights. They are luxuries.

Regards, Paul

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by Paul Brookes

That super rich category must only account of a tiny % of the population though.

True, about 0.1%. But, in the USA at least, they own about half the wealth of the entire country.

Originally Posted by Paul Brookes

For the vast majority of people, most work hard for their lifestyles, pay taxes and IMO have a right to feel agrieved that those taxes are being spent (in some cases) to make life comfortable for people who can't be bothered to work.

I can't disagree with you! However, there are few people with the ability to overcome their "birthright" to any great extent. There are some, and they are to be applauded. Perhaps we should be spending more, better targetted, money on the others to ease the way out of poverty. When you're bred to have no hope, it's very difficult to see your way out of "the ghetto" when the only well off people you see are drug dealers.

Originally Posted by Paul Brookes

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but to me if you want something, work for it. Beer, cigarettes, playstations, a car are not rights. They are luxuries.

In that respect I'm fairly old fashioned too, but when all the media you're exposed to is full of aspirational lifestyle BS it's hard to believe that your B&F aren't essential. I believe that there's less absolute poverty than there used to be, but the gap between the rich and rest is growing. This can't be good for society.