EU Constitution Referendum

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by AM1

Constitution... lack of...

...the powers are now enjoyed and exercised on behalf of the monarch by the Prime Minister.

Welcome to democracy, the system where a minority get to choose the next dictator.

According to the Declaration of Arbroath, ratified by the effective federal European head of state at the time (the Pope), and as far as I know never rescinded, states that those in power govern by mandate of the people and that when the people are no longer satisfied then they are entitled to (even encouraged to) forcibly remove that government. It was later used as one of the models for the US constitution. I would assume the Act of Union would make that applicable to Westminster rather than Edinburgh.

However, our government has made even considering any rebellion against them an offence, denying us a right bestowed on us by the only world superpower at the time (i.e. the Vatican). I wonder if the Inquisition is busy... Now wouldn't that be a fitting end to Mr Bliar's career.

What a waste. I'd rather not pay my taxes on keeping him locked up.

For once that would be a tax I'd be willing to pay.

[AM1]

At last, a voice of reason in a sea of banality.

Various commentators are missing my point entirely. The main point was not about the merits of Europe or otherwise, it's about lack of CONSULTATION and the fundamental right to a Referendum!!!!!

[MarkP]

Originally Posted by AM1

At last, a voice of reason in a sea of banality.

Huh?

Originally Posted by AM1

Various commentators are missing my point entirely. The main point was not about the merits of Europe or otherwise, it's about lack of CONSULTATION and the fundamental right to a Referendum!!!!!

I'm glad we haven't had / won't have one.

The reality is that they're never about the actual issue they purport to represent and end up simply reflecting an uninformed public's political bias.

Should there ever be a referendum it will be voted for on purely emotive grounds rather than the tedious minutiae of a long document.

I'd rather put the future of my country in the hands of people whose information comes from sources more diverse than Trevor Kavanagh's editorials. Which are, of course, heavily influenced by one of the world's richest tax avoiders, who changed his nationality to allow himself to buy stakes in a foreign press.

Give me a well informed public and I'll be in favour of a referendum. Until then I'd rather pay professionals (???!!!) to make the decisions.

[Pigpen]

Originally Posted by MarkP

I'd rather put the future of my country in the hands of people whose information comes.........etc.

That was Blair and is now Brown! You're a brave man!

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by AM1

...Various commentators are missing my point entirely. The main point was not about the merits of Europe or otherwise, it's about lack of CONSULTATION and the fundamental right to a Referendum!!!!!

Tempted as I am to agree with you that we should have consultation (as a point of principle) I have to say I do not think there is any fundamental "right" to referenda about this or any other matter. The UK system as best I understand it does not confer such rights on her majesty's subjects. Further, from what I have glanced at the odd Daily Mail headline most of the UK's blue rinse right don't actually want human rights or anything like it.

The introduction of an European constitution is, IMO, a valid reason for a referendum in each member state. The current proposal is not such a change. The Eurocrats always seem mystified that the ordinary folk of the EU do not share their dream. Perhaps that is because our national governments are also inept and dishonest but at least we know who they are. The idea of inept and dishonest politicians who are unknown to us and may even not speak a language we understand is understandably scary to anyone.

It seems to me therefore that any attempt to give power, either administrative or political, to the pan-national EU institutions is likely to be opposed by the EU population. This is my experience of talking to people and their distrust of "Brussels" (even the good folk of Belgium share this view). This sentiment is whipped up by the gutter press in order to sell their worthless chip-wrapper papers to the monosyllabic masses. The referendum is therefore seen by most people as a referendum on the merits of EU membership. As such the real debate can never have a fair hearing.

Chris

[Scubee]

Basically, the reason there won't be/hasn't been a referendum is because the vast majority of the UK population wouldn't understand the question beyond the actual words. Their 'x' would be based on the bollox spouted by the press and the spin from various political factions.

2p

[gerbil]

Originally Posted by Scubee

Their 'x' would be based on the bollox spouted by the press and the spin from various political factions.

tis as it always was and always will be, the trick is to have a system whereby the political fations have to seek legitimacy from the people rather than the money and thats a damn fine near impossible trick

Me i'm pro a reformed europe put to the people and voted in. If we go on the way we are it'll end in tears and if you carry on running around like that you will have somes eye out

[jazzie129uk]

besides europe's only part of this immense mass of nonsense that we call modern politics. just a few things off the top of my head:

1) mps being dependant on their party bosses rather than their constituents for career development;
2) the falacy of an "electoral mandate";
3) the use of orders in council to subvert the role of parliament and the populace;
4) the banning of peaceful public demonstration within shouting distance of parliament unless sanctioned by the police;
5) increasing politisation of the civil service, the police and the army;
6) overt and covert funding of the political parties by vested interests;
7) a political class that is increasingly duplicitous;
8) huge portions of the population being disenfranchised by the electoral system.

think i'd rather be underwater... ;-)

danny

[captainnemo]

The reason we should be given a referendum about the new European treaty is quite simple, there was a manifesto commitment by the Government to put the matter to a referendum.

The fact that the manifesto commitment was a means to avoid making a decision at the time is typical of New Labour, never put off till tomorrow what you can defer until the the next administration.... they use a similar technique with screw-ups like the flooding, foot-and-mouth or hospital infections: suddenly these problems are due to long-term factors (essentially, blame the Tories)

And now, after 10 years biting his nails in the shadows, Gordon gets to play at Leader at long last. Some of us noted during his Chancellorship that he had a tendency to be absent when major decisions were being made. Some of us noted that in all those ten years he never admitted any mistakes, though never missed an opportunity to tell us what a great job he was doing.

Well, no more suspense, the man has the top job at last....and is rapidly demonstrating what some of us always thought, that he is manifestly not up to the job (I thought he was a crap Chancellor too as it happens). Brown lacks the charisma of his predecessor (Blair was undeniably personable) and further, for a man who has been in top level politics for so long Brown is a remarkably petty and spiteful interlocutor.

He won't consider a referendum for the same reason that he bottled calling a general election (and every other major political choice in his life), he couldn't guarantee the result and there wasn't anyone else to take the blame if he got it wrong. This is the sort of man we have running the Government for the next couple of years: he writes about courage but he doesn't display any.

The current Cabinet demonstrate the sort of man Brown is, over-stuffed with mediocre Scottish MPs and northern constituency yes-men like Jack Straw and Alan Johnson, the sort of people who have risen without trace and will leave no record of achievement. A Foreign Secretary who looks like a sixth-former (but without the intellectual maturity), a Home Secretary who might have great tits but since when did that matter? Can she explain why the prisons are full or there are no meaningful figures for illegal immigrant numbers in this country?

Regardless of whether Labour or Conservative are in power we look to our Government to demonstrate a degree of competence in the running of our institutions and the current bunch are effing things up on an epic scale. The planned surrender of a whole slew of matters to an amorphous European government is just one more un-considered act whose consequences have not been thought through.

[Bardo]

A politician that listens to the people? They don't exist - pure and simple.

Actually I'm doing them a disservice - politicians *do* listen to the people for exactly two weeks *before* an election and two weeks *after* an election. For the rest of the time, they act in the best interests of their own party and personal career aspirations.

What scares me is how so many of the freedoms that our grandfathers fought for in two world wars have been slowly but surely eroded by the state since 9-11 in the name of the 'war on terror'. One day the 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about' brigade is going to wake up and smell the roses... by then, though, I fear it'll be too late...