No Speako Di Lingo......

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (tas @ Oct. 15 2003,14:13)]I agree completely with some of those sentiments and volunteer to bring order and respect just as soon as I am elected Ruler of the World for life,

Oi! get to the back of the queue Tas   I've been plotting World Domination for years now and I'm not having some Tassy-come-lately messing up my well laid plans (not my best laid plans you understand as they would be very likely to "gan aglay&quot
They don't call me Dr Evil for nowt y'knaa, however my plans are undergoing a temporary hiatus whilst I'm auditioning for a new Mini-Me.

[Moray]

I vote for Steve W for Dictator...


re: the thread
In a nutshell, the language is losing elegance...

moray

[Phil_Beardsmore]

A highly erudite and entertaining thread.  I will refrain from adding my own diatribes both for and against the central premise, but I'm afraid I do have to reply to Dominic's earlier execrable post re people who take anti-depressants.

Dominic, I have always had a very high regard for your knowledge of all matters subaquatic, but you clearly know bugger all about mental illness.  As someone who has recently been off work for six months with a depressive illness and is still recovering I found your remarks deeply offensive and typical of the attitudes which stigmatise sufferers and often discourage them from seeking much needed help.

I only hope that you never have to suffer from such problems yourself.

Phil

[Dr Stevil]

Phil, hope you're feeling better soon mate, I have once or twice been to my GP with reactive depression, in my experience I didn't find their solution of  pill-popping to be at all helpful, plus you're off diving once you start on them (at least with Prozac), which is how a good friend and one-time dive buddy dives no longer, but his illness is much reduced.

However I think you've missed an opportunity to highlight the original problem of language use: Dominic has used the word "depressed" in it's everyday, and frankly very inappropriate, mode. In his defence I believe he's only 22 or thereabouts and consequently has not had as much time to learn as much about the wider vageries of life as perhaps you and I and others, who  know that "depression" in its medical classification has nothing to do with having friends, family, job, money, physical health ..... etc.  and everything to do with altered neurochemical activity, which no amount of "C'mon, pull yourself together..." can fix.

Depression is still a misunderstood and almost taboo issue, which is not helped by the medical fraternity's frequent description of it as "mental illness" (FFS as if there was any such thing as perfect mental health!)
1 in 4 people will experience some kind of mental health problem in the course of a year and
1 in 6 people will have depression at some point in their life. Depression is most common in people aged 25-44 years, 1 in 10 people are likely to have a 'disabling anxiety disorder' at some stage in their life. 20 per cent of women and 14 per cent of men in England have some form of mental illness.
So if these figures were "normally distributed"  (which is admittedly unlikely), this means that of the 1000 or so YD members, about 200 or more will know what you've been going through.

Best wishes for a full recovery
steve

[aclivity]

<font color='#810541'>

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Steve W @ Oct. 15 2003,14:23)]Islanders who end in uproar (8), this apparently was one of the clues in a Times crossword which holds the record for the longest time taken to completion (according to Roy Castle, RIP).

Right, I give up.  I haven't got the staying power of Times Crossworders, obviously (and my brain has turned to mush with two kids in two years - now I'm more likely to read &quot;tweenies weekly&quot; than any quality publications).

I'm thinking something to do with slander (too obvious?) or Iceland.

Andy

[Gavin Yates]

<font color='#000F22'>The only thing that I can think of is BROUHAHA - it means uproar but not sure of the Islanders reference.

[Dr Stevil]

Answer is &quot;Cypriots&quot; , ends in &quot;riots&quot; ie uproar, don't think I would have got it, its just that one answer which stuck in my memory from &quot;Record Breakers&quot;

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Dominic, I have always had a very high regard for your knowledge of all matters subaquatic, but you clearly know bugger all about mental illness.  As someone who has recently been off work for six months with a depressive illness and is still recovering I found your remarks deeply offensive and typical of the attitudes which stigmatise sufferers and often discourage them from seeking much needed help.

No offense meant, Phil. But you're reading into my post something which wasn't there.

ie I specifically said that many of the people on antidepressants are NOT suffering from a genuine, clinical condition, but a lifestyle issue - depression as a medical condition is indeed a debilitating mental illness that requires treatment and should not be treated in any less serious a manner than any other mental condition. But I never said a word about the medical condition.

I can't even agree that I've used the word innapropriately. If you look at my post, you'll see that the word &quot;depression&quot; never even gets mentioned. &quot;depressed&quot; is a perfectly valid description of somebody who is unhappy, it's not solely a medical term for somebody with a mental problem.

If you honestly think that there aren't a lot of people on anti-depressants who have NO such medical condition, then i'm afraid I must say that it is YOU who knows very little.

Clinical depression is a relatively rare condition if considered by the number of sufferers at one time. But antidepressant drugs are huge business. That there are people on it due to lifestyle-induced unhappiness rather than a mental disorder is an inescapable conclusion.

And I'll state as a reminder that I work for a pharmaceutical company, (having previously worked in a drug and alcohol abuse center), and have for the last four years processed an average of at least ten patient reports a day. That's more thousands of reports than I care to think about. And the observations I stated are, I assure you, totally accurate based on that experience. I'm not making an assumption based on some crap I read in a tabloid newspaper.

I sincerely hope you recover from your condition.

[Phil_Beardsmore]

Dominic,

With all due respect, that isn't the way your post reads.  Particularly when you post things like:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Every single patient I've ever received a report on who's been on anti-depressants has been massively overweight, without exception.

That does rather lead me to the conclusion that your knowledge of the subject is somkewhat less than comprehensive.

I quite agree that there is some mispresciption of anti-depressants by the medical community.  This does not mean, however, that genuine depressive illness is not VERY widespread and getting worse.

There is an awful lot of confusion in the minds of the public regarding cause and effect.  You appear to be implying that for a huge proportion of those on anti-depressants are only 'depressed' because they don't have happy, fulfilling lives.  A key impact of clinical depression is that it prevents you from leading a happy and fulfilling life unless or until it can be successfully treated, no matter how much you might want to.

There is a widespread 'tabloid' view that most of these 'depressed' people just need to 'pull themselves together' and that to a large extent 'it's their own fault'.  The overall tone of your post seems very much to re-inforce that view.  As someone apparently experienced in the field I would have expected you to take every care to avoid this.

For your information my BMI is slap in the middle of the 'normal' range so you are now aware of someone who isn't massively obese but has had to use these drugs.

Fortunately I am 99% back to normal and look forward to resuming serious amounts of diving in the near future (babysitters permitting).

Phil

PS I very much like my Otter drysuit which I bought partially on your recommendation.  The Apex dump valve is a right bugger though.

[Dominic]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]With all due respect, that isn't the way your post reads

If there's an implication in my posts which I didn't intend to make, I apologise unreservedly.

However...

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]

That does rather lead me to the conclusion that your knowledge of the subject is somkewhat less than comprehensive.

I would ask to you re-read that one more time and see what I'm actually saying. This is a simple, inarguable fact - every report I've ever had put on my desk that had a patient taking antidepressants has also stated that that patient was overweight.
I don't claim that that means that everybody on antidepressants is overweight. Or that there's necessarily any link between the one and the other. However, it is still not a matter up for debate, nor is it a reflection of any knowledge or lack of it I possess - It's exactly what I've had reported, time and time again.
Whether this is a cause of depression or caused BY depression is certainly up for debate. Whether there is any link at all is equally arguable - most of the patients on ADs have been American, where there is a widespread obesity problem. I certainly make no claim that everybody on anti-depressants is overweight. But that still doesn't change the fact that every anti-depressant taking patient I've ever had reported HAS been overweight.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] A key impact of clinical depression is that it prevents you from leading a happy and fulfilling life unless or until it can be successfully treated, no matter how much you might want to

And that is, AIUI, the root of the problem - trying to identify which people are clinically depressed and therefore have unhappy lives, and which people have unhappy lives and are therefore depressed, but not clinically. There's no question that this is an inordinately difficult choice to make, especially when a doctor can hardly say &quot;Are you sure you're suffering from depression, or is it possible that you have a sad, empty life?&quot;.
However, according to my experience, which has included chatting to a number of doctors who were in a position to be very knowledgeable about this subject, there's a very widespread tendency for the above problem to be treated by ignoring it and treating all cases of depression as clinical rather than lifestyle problems - an NHS employee of my acquaintance recently told me that &quot;antidepressants are being handed out like sweets&quot; and that there's actually an initiative underway to address this very problem - too many people who should be sent to counseling for help with resolving their lifestyle problems are just being put straight onto drugs. Obviously, if the problem is that you have an unhappy life, taking drugs to make yourself happy about it is going to leave you on drugs for the rest of your life.
I would very much like to believe that the number of people being treated for depression inappropriately is very small, but I sadly don't - I believe exactly the opposite.
So whilst I decry the perception that depression is used as an excuse, I can't honestly blame anyone for holding this perception. Too many people ARE claiming to be sufferers when they aren't.
Telling a genuine depression-sufferer to heal themselves by telling them to pull themselves together is like expecting a schizophrenic to get better by telling them &quot;just ignore the voices&quot;. But I will be honestly amazed if genuine depressed people aren't outnumbered by people who are taking anti-depressants who shouldn't be.
Until this problem is addressed, the perception problems genuine sufferers have to put up with will remain. And the problem will only be addressed by recognizing that it exists in the first place. Which is why I raised the issue in the first place.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] Fortunately I am 99% back to normal and look forward to resuming serious amounts of diving in the near future

Very glad to hear it!

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] PS I very much like my Otter drysuit which I bought partially on your recommendation.  The Apex dump valve is a right bugger though.

I agree - will be replacing mine right after the next dive show
If I see you there, I'll buy you a pint