Get a Degree in Failure...or Enter Life's Trade?

[Mr T.]

Ah, the old 'just call/rename a Poly a Uni and hope that no one notices and we'll hope to have 'as good' or better results' policy.....? Bollocks. Anywhere which accepts "innit" as a form of conversational exchange will always have a an 'up-hill struggle'!



Is this the worst university in Britain?
(08/02/2004)


A university with one of the highest drop-out rates in the country will allow students to progress to the final year of their degree even if they fail to pass their second year exams. [So the 'Video-game' school of educational achievement?? FFS!]

Luton University has agreed that, as long as students attempt their second year examination or coursework, they can start their third year even if they have failed a quarter of the initial assessment.

The move follows an earlier decision by Luton to allow the first year of its degree courses to be "foundational in character", so that students could study "without fear of failure".

The latest policy means that students failing courses in both the first and second years will not be required to take resits.

Alan Smithers, a professor of education at Liverpool University, said that he was dismayed by Luton's rule change, which threatened to undermine the reputation of British degrees.

"This seems an excessively generous set of arrangements. It means that for a quarter of the initial degree assessment, all students need to do is to turn up," he said. [And alludes strongly to the American 'Multiple Choice' type arse, where 'to guess is good' and a solid and comprehensive knowledge of a given subject comes a poor second to actual ability in same.]

"There is no requirement for a student to have reached a certain level in some courses. Are these courses an integral part of the degree or not? If they are not, why are students doing them?

"No one is denying people the opportunity to study, but if a particular standard is not being met, more intensive help or a longer period of study should be looked at. It is counterproductive to maintain the fiction that people are achieving standards by lowering the requirements."

Prof Smithers also gave a warning that the international reputation of British degrees would be damaged at a time when universities were increasingly dependent on the higher fees charged to overseas candidates. [Financial necessity]

Tim Boatswain, the pro-vice chancellor of Luton University, which has 12,000 students, including 2,000 from overseas, defended his institution's degrees.

He insisted that the requirements for examination passes followed established national standards and denied that the changes devalued Luton's degrees.

"Luton has an excellent teaching quality rating. It came 14th out of 120 [rated A, B, C, to Z??] institutions on this measure and was described by Charles Clarke, the Education Secretary, as 'bloody brilliant'.

"Recently the Quality Assurance Agency, which monitors university courses, said that the teaching in our business school was inspirational. This record hardly suggests that Luton has low standards," he said.

Despite Mr Boatswain's assurances, a quarter of degree students at Luton fail to finish their studies. In some other "new" universities [like Luton], the non-completion rate is as high as a third. [So where do your Tax £'s go?? To wasters on this evidence.]

Luton University was created in 1993 from the former Luton College of Higher Education as part of the Conservative government's policy of removing the distinction between the former polytechnics and the "old" universities. [A seriously bad move, as simply caling someone a 'University student' doesn't make or prove them same.]

About 15 per cent of students drop out of university nationally, costing £300 million in tuition fees and subsidised student loans.

Universities are under pressure from ministers to address the problem. Opponents of the Government's plan to get half of all young people into higher education by 2010 argue that high drop-out rates prove that not everyone is suited to academic study. [Errr....Doh!!!! So why try and shoe-horn them into the name?? They fail anyway and you - the Gov't of the day - just look a James!]

At Luton, students have to study 24 courses (called modules) to gain a degree. Under the new regulations, students need only pass six out of eight modules in the first and second years. For an honours degree, they must pass all final year modules. [The number of which needed to be passed - out of the total -  left out of this report.]

The changes mark a departure from the rules at most other universities that require students to resit the modules that they fail before a final degree is awarded.


[And there's no 'dumbing-down'??]

[Diving Dude]

Now before l start I've had a few scotches so be warned......

l think that successive governments have placed an emphasis on getting people into to university and generally most people agree, so any youngster entering into an apprentiship is looked upon as someone who failed to get the exam results to enable them to go to university.

This is why the building trade is short of skilled workers at the moment and is one of the reasons, l believe, the government is happy to open our borders to EC workers.

The situation will only improve when ordinary people realise that it's not the end of the world not to go to university and to enter an apprentiship or trade.

[Mark Davies]

<font color='#000080'>Too bloody right Howard. But I think the balance may soon be addressed once people realise that quality, skilled tradesmen are at the moment pulling in far more money than any graduate. And then, when we get more apprentice tradesmen (curse to NVQ's!) their standards might improve to what they used to be.

[Mary]

<font color='#F52887'>As a student, i have to say i think many universities (predominantly the old polys), which are providing degrees in &quot;surfing&quot; and &quot;cultural studies&quot; should be closed down. Why old Tony feels 50% of school leavers should do a degree I don't understand, many of these are worth very little and a degree certainly is not worth as much today. There is not enough skilled labour in the country today as Howard says, and this certainly isn't the way to remedy it.

The amount of funding that goes to keeping these institutes and their students is farcical and would be much better directed at a smaller number of universities and courses. If this were the case would we need to raise top up fees to £3000 a year? Personally if I had to pay fees of £15000 before any living costs (and few holidays to earn money), it is very likely I (and many of my peers,) would have to think twice about studying medicine. (incidently, this country need doctors, at the moment we are working illegal hours as there are not enough doctors to go round nationally, why we have to pay fees and physio's get paid to train is beyond me).

[tom]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (diving dude @ Feb. 09 2004,01:05)]The situation will only improve when ordinary people realise that it's not the end of the world not to go to university and to enter an apprentiship or trade.

Howard, speaking as a university lecturer, my reaction to your comment is:

I don't know a single one of my colleagues who would disagree with you. In my opinion you are exactly right (and I've been heard to rant along the same lines after a few scotches too).

[Digger]

<font color='#000080'>P-O-L-Y You ain't got no alibi, you STUPID! (Nottingham Uni, Varsity games, circa 2001)

Just to add a bit of arrogance to the situation. What I really want to know is, if I get a 3rd, and someone from Luton gets a 1st in the same subject, am I still going to get the job? By the looks of this, probably.

Come on Trent. Give up your exams. Send the students packing. I joke, but trent is ok as unis go.

Just for good measure, to the tune of Walk On:
Sign on,
Sign on,
With a pen in your hand,
Cause you'll never get a job.
You'll never get a job.

3 years wasted at some of these unis if you ask me. Good thing it's not costing me owt!

Tom, I didn't realise you were a lecturer. Want to come work at Nottingham? I've got a couple need replacing. Engineering your area at all? Turn your hand to it?

[Rupert Bear]

When I worked in Canada years ago I always wondered why UK training was rated so highly, then the new system took over here and I found out why.
When I was at school a degree was worth something, now everybody has one and it is worth nothing. You can get one in a lucky bag nowadays.
A great majority of students here don't deserve the places they have, number of places should be cut dramatically and then the fees issue would never have happened. University places should be fully funded and based on merit and nothing else.
Rant over &nbsp;

[Dr Stevil]

As someone who started life in an apprenticeship (Engineering, Toolmaker) then many years later ended up in the academic system: BSc, PhD then Post-Doc research.... Howard, I couldn't agree more.

Sure doing a degree can be fun, but at the end of the day very few people go into the area of work relevant to the degree, so you have to wonder what was the point of it.

I don't regret leaving my last full time job (retail management) to do my degrees and become a scientist, but I've said it before and I'll say it again - I wish I'd been a plumber ! At their standard rate of £200 a day, you can buy a lot of dive holidays, and it's way, way more than I'll ever earn being a Post-Doc (whereas lecturers like Tom are loaded   )

I'm a scientist! get me out of here

PS Howard, is 42 too old to learn a new trade ? 

[Reeve]

<font color='#000F22'>I agree, with all that's said here. I left school at 16, getting a rare job (engineering apprentership) where as friends stayed on and went to uni. Some did very well some didn't. I later went back to uni and studied for a B-eng (Hons) 5yrs p/t. However I decided to remain on the shop floor, so to speak as this paid substancially higher rates than in the engineering office. Why take a 25% paycut, work extrahours unpaid have the hassle of yearly apprasils, jostling with colleagues hoping for a pay-rise, kissing ass because your on a personnel contract so are one step from the door.

Ok so being a &quot;fitter&quot; doesn't have the same tones as engineer but I come and go as I like. If I want extra cash I work overtime, It's largely unstimalating but I've got more time for the pleasures in life like diving etc.

my tupence worth.

[Snash]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Digger @ Feb. 09 2004,10:50)]Just to add a bit of arrogance to the situation. What I really want to know is, if I get a 3rd, and someone from Luton gets a 1st in the same subject, am I still going to get the job? By the looks of this, probably.

Not arrogance at all, young Digger, has always been thus. &nbsp;

Companies are already very selective at which Unis they recruit from eg attending Milk Round recruitment fairs etc.

This will only increase going forward until the situation where even if folk get more than a Douglas or a Desmond from Scumbag Poly (c/f The Young Ones) they won't even get an interview as your Uni will become a pre-qualifier.

and yes.... I am looking for a pay-off package so I can retrain as a Plumber. &nbsp;

Simon