European Referendum

[HelenM]

I'm bored, it's Friday afternoon... feeling the need to light a blue touchpaper and retire....Feel free to adopt a soap box and get stuck in...

Helen

[chrisch]

I'm fed up too..  However, I really should do some work...

You have to really know what this thing is all about to have a credible view.  I think most people just think no as a knee-jerk reaction to anything "European".  I believe the referendum is about changing the voting as a result of the enlarged EU as of this year.  The term "constitution" is somewhat misleading.  However, I am happy to be corrected if there are any specialists out there.  I voted don't care as I really don't care.  Europe (the EU) is a good thing on the whole but with some dumb aspects and even the odd big fault.  Whatever I/we vote it will lumber on and on....

Come on all you UK seperatists - come out the woodwork and share your views with us so we can laugh at you!!

Have a nice weekend
Chris

[Gavin Yates]

<font color='#000F22'>What's the question?

[Snash]

C'mon - aren't you being a bit previous?

Surely, we should be having a referendum to see if we have a referendum on Europe

Simon

[chrisch]

Gavin. &nbsp;THE as in THE, not the, question is which is best:- Belgian beer, like Chimay or Leffe, or UK beer, like Theakston's Old Peculiar???

My Money is on the Theakston's. &nbsp;However, I am a committed European and happily drink the Chimay as well. &nbsp;Just don't let that dreadful Blair bloke force me to drink Lager.. &nbsp;Ughhh.

Chris

[Ian B]

<font color='#0000FF'>I wonder when the PM would hold the referendum.

He'd need to be pretty brave (or stupid) to hold it next year before the general election. After that Britain has presidency of Europe so it would be embarassing for him to hold the referendum in case we voted against it.???

Anyway, the main thing is to vote.

[HelenM]

Chris,

I voted no - but I would like to think that my vote wasn't a knee jerk reaction to all things European though - I am not one of those who would like to see us withdraw from the EU for example.  I do see the benefits of our membership.  

Reasons for my no vote in relation to this constitution - have strong concerns over the following:
Common taxation policy.  Er, no thanks - I'd quite like to have anything that has an effect on the economy of my country determined BY my country!
Co-ordination of social policies generally. (Although I'd quite like the French working week thanks )
Common military policy
Screamingly huge bureaucratic machinery (think we have far too much of that already)
Dilution of my vote

Europe is a vast and hugely diverse entity - assuming that the responsibility of any government is to ensure 'the greatest happiness of the greatest number', then at various points the interests of those in this country will suffer.  Agree that sometimes this is a necessary evil - but would prefer that the decision for such self-sacrifice remained with my elected representatives (and by extension, me), and is not purely because we are forced into a corner!

We can argue over the rights and wrongs of whether or not the UK armed forces should be in Iraq at the present time - a ruck I have no intention of going into here - but it is certainly true that if we were bound by this constitution, then they wouldn't be.  Whether or not we thought it was the right thing to do, the choice in this matter would not have been ours to make.  Equally we couldn't express pleasure or displeasure to those who made the decision when voting.

We already have a government, legal system, police force, armed forces, who are there to reflect our wishes, policies, goals, aims, and protect our interests.  I just don't see the benefit to having these at a European level.  At present there is a strong cause and effect at work in our constitution - the government does something the majority of the Uk population doesn't like... we kiss them goodbye at our next rendezvous with the polls.  If the European government does something we despise - potentially that's just tough.  

And BTW - to me, it seems ironic in the extreme that the government which has presided over the devolution of power inside the UK also wants to move exactly the opposite way as well!

Euro-separatist - definitely not, Euro-Sceptic - hmm not really.  Euro-wary about covers it.

Bloody hell, I've really gotta do some work!!

Helen

[abucksdiver]

<font color='#000080'>But then...

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Common taxation policy.  Er, no thanks - I'd quite like to have anything that has an effect on the economy of my country determined BY my country!

Do the majority of countries in europe have HIGHER taxation than us? So, maybe letting &quot;Europe&quot; decide our taxation will make us richer... i.e. loads more shinnnnnneyyyy dive kit!

abucks

[chrisch]

OK I too need to get on with work but here goes. &nbsp;Helen, I like your argument. &nbsp;HOWEVER as I understand it (I aint no expert) all the things you mention are not covered by the coming vote. &nbsp;I too am wary of EU tax harmony, but it probably is unrealistic to image it could be achieved even if anyone wanted to. &nbsp;I do think a single rate of VAT is a real possibility as this could be achieved. &nbsp;Since most countries have VAT at about 18% +/- 2% it may not make much odds. &nbsp;The stupidity of someone living, say in Strasbourg, driving over to Germany to buy an item at 15% VAT and not 22% in France (these are not their real rates) is an irritant if you were a French retailer.
The militiary thing is also not covered, although there are some in Europe that would like a combined military. &nbsp;The logistics of different languages and equipment make it a non-starter.

THEREFORE I come back to original point the referendum is about voting standards and the like and has been bullshitted out of proportion by half-witted press reports by a (largely) anti-EU press, run by rich press barons who have personal agendas and not the interests of people like you and me at heart.

I think this is a fair interpretation. &nbsp;(Anyone read the thing and know better - I really would like to know).

Meantime my vote stays on don't care. &nbsp;(Besides I live in Italy !!).
Ciao

Chris (one time Londoner and brief Sheffield resident before you throw me off Yorkshire divers our kid).

[HelenM]

Chris,

I don't know how interested you are, but if the answer is very, you can find the doc here.  I've read parts of it - not the whole lot (my insomnia aint that bad ), and still think that - although it is not spelt out in the terms I have used above - much of it is impllicit -the framework is in place to implement these ideas.  As with so many documents, it's all about interpretation!!!

Also want to say

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]EU tax harmony, but it probably is unrealistic to image it could be achieved even if anyone wanted to

 ... Why?  Similar things were said about the single currency - and look at where this stands today...

As far as the military bit goes, it's not so much about the linguistics or equipt etc as having a combined military policy - i.e. the decision about where to deploy etc is taken at a Euro level, not a national one.
Say if this doesn't make sense- typing in a frantic hurry - want to write more, but desperately want to get finished at work so I can scoot off!!

Cheers
Helen (Never even lived in Yorkshire - so you have one up on me there anyway!)