Bring back NATIONAL SERVICE: Yes or No?

[Garf]

Hmm.

"Professional Killers"

Yup. Would you expect them to do it out of the goodness of their hearts? You would be suprised how little that renumeration is. You might also be suprised to learn that ooutside full scale war, there are remarkably few mission profiles that demand you to get up in the morning and go looking for someone to kill. I would call them "Professional Targets" as more often than not, their job is to get in the way when its likely someone else if going to suffer. That is what they are paid for, to go into situations that the untrained would find unpalatable, or unbearable.

"Mercenarys"

Ironically, the frequency with which members of the armed forces go it alone after they leave the service is a direct result of the lack of support and support services provided to them, leaving them with few options. We celebrate the military when shit comes together. We demonise it when the shit falls apart, and we try to ignore and brush under the carpet individual members when they are deemed suplus to requirements.

If everyone in the world thought like Alan, there would indeed be no need for the armed forces. Unfortunately, not everyone does think like Alan, and to pretend otherwise is to sticking your head in the sand.

I have no problem with your views, and your dislike of military pesonnel. Everyone is entitled to their own views, and the freedom to form them. In the forces, we used to think people like you were a bunch of clueless wankers. We were just as entitled to our view as you are to yours.

Just try to bear in mind how and why you have the freedom to form and publically state your own views, and the price others have paid to give you that freedom.

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by Garf

Hmm.
If everyone in the world thought like Alan, there would indeed be no need for the armed forces.

If everyone thought like Alun they would be a shortage of Jesus sandals, tank tops and flares.

Originally Posted by alunharford

Alun Harford
Churchill College
University of Cambridge

Alun old chap I am sorry if ones English is not up to scratch. You see I was one of those despicable military types that were out getting shot at while you were getting your education. Still as you have no problems with being shot at yourself, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind people shooting at me. Not the kind of thing that rows ones boat.

Dave.

This thread has to be a windup surely? nobody is that naive?
I would bloody well hope that the Uk military are professional killers, that is what they trained for.
Military history has proved again and again that if you have to fight, you do it hard and fast and there are only two kinds of people, yours......and everyone else. or in the words of Jackie Fisher "The essence of war is violence. Moderation in war is imbecility."
Anyway, Iceland doesn't need an army, nobody is going to bother her simply because both us and The US would not allow them to for strategic reasons. Japan had a small army simply because the US insisted as part of the surrender just like Germany not being able to deploy troops overseas till recently.
If a soldier is ordered to kill and it is an illegal order then they can actually refuse you know...
I looked up the application to Cambridge. Actually putting that in as if it gave himself more credence has actually lowered it. He is a Computer science geek that only went to Uni in 2002 so is either still there or just leaving rather than an acedemic which is what most people would have assumed. Lots of folk on here have degrees, some in more releveant subjects, and have considerably more "life experience" (ie old bu**ers) to make this irrelevant and amusing as a claim.

[alunharford]

Originally Posted by Brass Monkey

If everyone thought like Alun they would be a shortage of Jesus sandals, tank tops and flares.

Err... No. But given the right situation there'd be a shortage of automatic weapons - but it wouldn't be because of a decision made by our *politicians*.

Originally Posted by Brass Monkey

Alun old chap I am sorry if ones English is not up to scratch. You see I was one of those despicable military types that were out getting shot at while you were getting your education. Still as you have no problems with being shot at yourself, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind people shooting at me.

You chose to participate. The civilians didn't.

[alunharford]

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

This thread has to be a windup surely? nobody is that naive?
I would bloody well hope that the Uk military are professional killers, that is what they trained for.

Who fight because of an order from some twat who is running the country, not because they're fighting for what's right.

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

Anyway, Iceland doesn't need an army, nobody is going to bother her simply because both us and The US would not allow them to for strategic reasons.

Then how do you explain the other thousand years then?

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

Japan had a small army simply because the US insisted as part of the surrender just like Germany not being able to deploy troops overseas till recently.

And has anybody invaded? No.

Originally Posted by RubberBoy

I looked up the application to Cambridge. Actually putting that in as if it gave himself more credence has actually lowered it. He is a Computer science geek that only went to Uni in 2002 so is either still there or just leaving rather than an acedemic which is what most people would have assumed.

I put it in as an off-the-cuff, slightly sarcastic remark to point out that I'm not current serving burgers. I'm sure that my student-y nature has previously been posted on here and on UKRS.
And I'm more of an extravert Computer Scientist than a 'geek' (I think that means I'm supposed to look at *your* shoes when I'm talking to you).
Oh and actually you only know that I applied for "Computer Science 50% IA", which may or may not have any bearing on what subject my degree is in

[Angus]

Originally Posted by alunharford

Who fight because of an order from some twat who is running the country, not because they're fighting for what's right.

You wanna get your arse over to some of the countries that the UK forces have 'assisted' over the past few years and see whether the locals thought their assistance was as you put it 'right'.

Speak the Kosovans about whether the ethnic cleansing taking place before the British troops arrived was 'right'.

You could also ask the locals in Sierra Leone whether they needed British assistance to end the bloodshed and horrific mutilation (and that was just at the hands of the Nigerians and the ECOWAS troops sent to help them).

Ask the Afghans whether they prefer the Taleban or the British assistance and also what the vast majority of Iraqis think was 'right'.

If you left your cosy little home and actually went to these places and spoke to the locals you might get a real feeling of what is right and what is wrong!

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Angus

You wanna get your arse over to some of the countries that the UK forces have 'assisted' over the past few years and see whether the locals thought their assistance was as you put it 'right'.

Speak the Kosovans about whether the ethnic cleansing taking place before the British troops arrived was 'right'.

You could also ask the locals in Sierra Leone whether they needed British assistance to end the bloodshed and horrific mutilation (and that was just at the hands of the Nigerians and the ECOWAS troops sent to help them).

Ask the Afghans whether they prefer the Taleban or the British assistance and also what the vast majority of Iraqis think was 'right'.

If you left your cosy little home and actually went to these places and spoke to the locals you might get a real feeling of what is right and what is wrong!

or the poor little 7 year old girl , who was afraid to get out her house and play, all because her dad was a serving police officer in Ireland.

The wife who's husband attends a bomb incident in his fire engine.

The husband who's wife is a paramedic in a ambulance attending a bombing.

OR SCARED shitless, not knowing if a second explosion will go off or being in the sights of a sniper.

BAD world we live in , but some one HAS to protect us .

[Digger]

Well, I'd missed this thread entirely. I think I can now stand up and defend me not having to do it, but I think it's a good idea in general. For everyone to spend a year doing something at least with some discipline would be useful I reckon, and could certainly sort out a few people I know with a career, not just something to do for a year!

I almost went the way of the armed forces anyway earlier this year, but in the end realised it wasn't for me. Not now, anyway. But if I knew I was signing up for a year to give it a go, why not?

I love the way Andy thinks students live a life of leisure. You're not seeing it. Sometimes it really is an effort to get up for the first showing of Neighbours. Without poieple like them Ready Steady Cook wouldn't even exist, and This Morning? Forget that. Mind you, in all my years as a student I never did see This Morning until thehouse party when it was on while we were still drinking!

All this political guff is opinions, everyone's got one. Personally, I make it my business to stay well out of it! Next thing Maggie Thatcher will be up for debate....

[Dinger]

Originally Posted by Andy the Commie 2

or the poor little 7 year old girl , who was afraid to get out her house and play, all because her dad was a serving police officer in Ireland.

The wife who's husband attends a bomb incident in his fire engine.

The husband who's wife is a paramedic in a ambulance attending a bombing.

OR SCARED shitless, not knowing if a second explosion will go off or being in the sights of a sniper.

BAD world we live in , but some one HAS to protect us .

Hear hear mate. My dad was called to a bomb in Belfast once with a team of of Docs and Paramedics. One was a good mate and one of the up and coming surgeons in Ireland. Dad was surpirsed when he came out of the building with severly injured people to see his mate, a calm natural doctor, sitting at the side of the road staring into space. He approached him to talk and the guy was in shock which shoke everyone up cause he was Mr calm and collected in any situation.

The reason - he found the decapitated body of his only child in the carnage.

Believe me Alun, and this is coming from a guy who grew up in Belfast. Ills were done here by soldiers and some terrible incidents but on the whole I have no doubt that they saved many many lives from the dicks in the IRA,UVF etc. We need these 'Professional Murderers' (sadly) to stop the real murderers from slaughtering all and sundry to make a 'political statement'.

Dinger

PS the doctor resigned 3 months later and worked as gardener since. Without the presence of the British Soldier this would be a much more common story in Ireland than it all ready is. Do NOT make silly comments without thinking about the impact comments like that would make. it is a disgrace to those who's lives these 'murderers' saved and to those who's only thing left of their presence in the world in a Cenotaph and democracy!!!

[alunharford]

Originally Posted by Angus

You wanna get your arse over to some of the countries that the UK forces have 'assisted' over the past few years and see whether the locals thought their assistance was as you put it 'right'.

This wasn't an issue of individual wars. In any war there are always at least two sides. At least one (and almost always both) of those sides are wrong, normally leaving the civilians stuck in the middle.

Originally Posted by Angus

also what the vast majority of Iraqis think was 'right'.

I can only repeat what was said to me by the wife of a friend I 'lost' to Saddam. It's cliche but "Saddam and the Americans are two sides of the same coin".
It's another case of two 'wrong' sides.