REvo2 V Submatics

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Garf

I've heard that before. I've also heard that the CE standard requires the unit to be able to support life without user intervention, so no MCCR is going to pass. But I heard that on a dive boat from a newbie kiss diver

The configuration of the loop scrubber and rear mounted counter lungs would also struggle to pass CE for work of breathing as well. The Sport KISS was going for CE and it was going to have mini over the shoulder lungs to get the WOB in acceptable limits. The Boris is the only rear counter lung unit with CE and thats mainly due to the scrubber design I believe.

The Sub was a SCR and it got a CE mark for that. Then thy went MCCR by adding a KISS valve. As far as i was aware the KISS type Subs were not CE marked so they are illegal to purchase in the UK. However things may have changed. If this chap has a legally purchased UK MCCR unit then i assume it has passed CE in which case they kept it pretty well under wraps???

The Revo is frankly a much better unit than the Sub and I personally think its better than the KISS as well. Having a manual add dill button and doing away with a lot of the hoses is a clever idea and having the HUDS as standard with a simple in line deco option puts the Revo in a different league. The twin scrubber design and ease of access to working parts makes it a winer for me as well.

A cell change on the KISS requires a screw driver a KISS tool an alun key and a pair of pliers. On the Revo is requires no tools at all?

Bear in mind I dive a Hammer Head Inspo and a KISS. I haven't got a Revo I just want one I haven't dived the Sub but i have had a good poke around the SCR version. My conclusion was its cheaply built. I didn't take it seriously as a rebreather because it was only offered as a SCR. SCR in my view is of limited benifit over OC. I do however love the slats in the back cover and would defo put neo blue back lights in there if i had one

IF the MCCR version is available in the UK with CE mark for £2500 then its by far the cheapest CCR out there. So if cost is your primary concern its got to be worth a look. Mind you i thought £2500 was for the SCR version I would have thought the KISS type would be a few quid more just for the 02 cells and displays?



Mark Chase

[Gaz46]

Don't fancy a 3hr dive let alone taking it to 105m. It's a great unit to start on and gain experience before moving on to the more complicated units.Given the amount of unfortunate incidents involving one particular type of unit, I would hope that the HSE will eventualy insist on a qualifying period on a basic unit before moving on to the serious stuff. This CE stuff is whats concerning me at the moment. I've heard about this definition of a rebreather (ccr) to meet CE requirements a few times now, so how come the Sub managed to get certified when its an MCCR ??? IF this CE approval gets revoked, where does this leave all the present MCCR owners??? If the HSE were to legislate on rebreathers there would be an obvious entry point of starting with SCR, then MCCR and finally CCR, so it does have a place in an individuals training and safe progression onto the more sophisticated units.

[Paul Evans]

Originally Posted by Gaz46

Don't fancy a 3hr dive let alone taking it to 105m. It's a great unit to start on and gain experience before moving on to the more complicated units.Given the amount of unfortunate incidents involving one particular type of unit, I would hope that the HSE will eventualy insist on a qualifying period on a basic unit before moving on to the serious stuff. This CE stuff is whats concerning me at the moment. I've heard about this definition of a rebreather (ccr) to meet CE requirements a few times now, so how come the Sub managed to get certified when its an MCCR ??? IF this CE approval gets revoked, where does this leave all the present MCCR owners??? If the HSE were to legislate on rebreathers there would be an obvious entry point of starting with SCR, then MCCR and finally CCR, so it does have a place in an individuals training and safe progression onto the more sophisticated units.

What I don't understand is, why are you so concerned about CE, unless you want to teach using it while you teach?

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

The travel Revo is 15KG if you want a light weight unit.

My CK weighed in at 17kg including rigid flight case, OK that was without cylinders and slime but it still isn't a heavy unit fully rigged. I was really surprised when it got checked in at Larnaca (not half as surprised as when it actually appeared on the carousel in Luton).

One thing about the Revo that made me almost have a little private, physical moment with myself was seeing someone swimming through a bedding plane on Paul's website -- it is very flat.

One thing I don't like is that a low WOB scrubber with a wider diameter generally means the scrubber bed is shallower. I'd worry that this might make a breakthrough a lot easier than with a deeper scrubber a la KISS. I might be talking out my arse though, that's just a gut feeling.

Tool-free design isn't necessarily a good thing for me either, as it provides too much temptation to open my RB's guts up in places where I really shouldn't be doing it. 10min before a dive isn't the time to start thinking about working on your RB, I want to do it when I'm not hurried, I've got everything I need to hand and can wander off for a brew when I'm bored. That may just be because I'm a technical incompetant. OK, a cell change isn't a small job but a manual CCR can be dived on 2 functioning cells... not that I ever would... ahem... So a cell craps out on a boat, so what, a new cell is going to need 24hrs to be happy before you install it anyway.

Originally Posted by Gaz46

so if anyones looking for a cheep Inspo/evo , just wait a little while longer and there'll be even more on the web to buy

Every time a new RB comes on the market they say that. "Bargain" and "CCR" are rarely used in the same breath. SCR's don't hold their value but CCR's bear up very well. People don't seem to trust Ebay for rebreathers so I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the prices there.

you can build it up to your own requirements

You can do that with most (OK, some might be aftermarket kit) but you need to know what you need before you buy it. A lot of rebreather divers become like dogs with two dicks when it comes to options, as do a lot of twinset divers. The Voyager had a million options as did the old Frog rebreather, it didn't necessarily do them any good.

To be honest, knowing the background of the makers and the pedigree of the base chassis and components it's built off, I'm very interested in the Colkan Eagle as a smaller lump.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Gaz46]

Hi, you seem to have the sort of answers that I'm looking for, anthing that could explain about the CE approval for the sub? What you said about a dog with 2 d***, know what you mean. The Sub is going down a similar path but you have to stand back and decide if its just gimics & trimmings or something that is going to increase performance/ reliability and safety.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Gaz46

Don't fancy a 3hr dive let alone taking it to 105m. It's a great unit to start on and gain experience before moving on to the more complicated units.Given the amount of unfortunate incidents involving one particular type of unit, I would hope that the HSE will eventualy insist on a qualifying period on a basic unit before moving on to the serious stuff. This CE stuff is whats concerning me at the moment. I've heard about this definition of a rebreather (ccr) to meet CE requirements a few times now, so how come the Sub managed to get certified when its an MCCR ??? IF this CE approval gets revoked, where does this leave all the present MCCR owners??? If the HSE were to legislate on rebreathers there would be an obvious entry point of starting with SCR, then MCCR and finally CCR, so it does have a place in an individuals training and safe progression onto the more sophisticated units.

The "amount of unfortunate incidents" relating to one particular unit may have something to do with the fact the Inspo has sold several thousand units and the Kiss (The number two best selling unit in the world) has sold less than 350. I have unit 184 and its a couple of years old at most. My friend has unit 250 something and he got it about a year ago.

The SUBMATRIX? I wonder if they have sold 100 units world wide yet? I wonder if they have sold 10 MCCR units yet?

Frankly i doubt it.

Please dont use statistics to balance the argument for the safety of any unit. Its pointless and its counter productive. All CCR are only as safe as the level of knowledge and ability of the diver that dives it.

CE mark is a red herring. The CCR market is so infinitesimally small that it doesn't justify the expense of CE mark. Thats it end of story. The rules of CE are daft and don't really do a lot to enhance diver safety.

CCR diving in 2007 is safer thanks to the global spread of open information from sites like Rebreather World. I honestly believe Stuart has saved lives by starting that site.

If you believe for one second that its the make of CCR thats keeping you alive and not your own diving knowledge or skill then you will become part of the statistics. There is nothing as dangerous as a 100% reliable CCR. You want the damed thing to fail occasionally just to keep you on your toes.

OC is simple it either feeds you gas or it doesn't. Yet even with this amazingly simple level we screw up. CCR offers a dynamic gas source and a whole world of new opportunities to screw up. However in truth its more often than not the fault of the diver and not the fault of the equipment.

ATB

Mark Chase

[NotDeadYet]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

The "amount of unfortunate incidents" relating to one particular unit may have something to do with the fact the Inspo has sold several thousand units

It was also the first real mainstream, commercially available CCR. No-one had had the access to rebreathers so easily before and no-one had been doing the same sort of diving as recreational (i.e. non-military/commercial) divers started using the YBOD for. The people who were using them at first were essentially writing the standards and procs we now follow. It had never been done before and the accident rate was bound to be high.

There is nothing as dangerous as a 100% reliable CCR

One of the design principles of the Cis-Lunar was a rebreather that would be completely bombproof so that it wouldn't have to rely on bailout systems (bail out is often the limiting factor in rebreather diving). It didn't have an especially enviable safety record. My own attitude to rebreathers is to assume it is going to fail at the most inconvenient moment. It's much more relaxing when you know something is going to happen and very satisfying when you get to the end of the dive and it hasn't happened.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Gaz46]

Frankly your wrong regarding Sub sales, very, very wrong! Diving schools alone have more than 10 and I know 7 people who've purchaced one since July 06, and I dont go to the inland rock pools to play at weekends where many more Sub divers meet up to play. I also understand there are considerably more than 100 units in the UK, let alone world wide. Rather more than the REvo2 can claim. So far as the CE status goes, I was more concerned about Insurance ect incase of death or injury and the legal implications, as it happens there's alot more to it than meets the eye and its a case of a 'little knowledge' becoming the problem. The Sub has in fact passed HSE inspection, or what ever it is they do, and is fit for use. If people read the CE documents thoroughly they would also understand how the Sub obtained CE approval. The thing is that I doubt that you have tried the Sub, but you choose to sleight it wherever possible. Why not give it a go, you never know, you might even like it and want to buy one for youself. Or is that what your scared of??? My grandfather, like many other respectable people had a simple answer to these situations, DON'T KNOCK IT UNTILL YOU'VE TRIED IT!

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by Gaz46

Frankly your wrong regarding Sub sales, very, very wrong! Diving schools alone have more than 10 and I know 7 people who've purchaced one since July 06, and I dont go to the inland rock pools to play at weekends where many more Sub divers meet up to play. I also understand there are considerably more than 100 units in the UK, let alone world wide. Rather more than the REvo2 can claim. So far as the CE status goes, I was more concerned about Insurance ect incase of death or injury and the legal implications, as it happens there's alot more to it than meets the eye and its a case of a 'little knowledge' becoming the problem. The Sub has in fact passed HSE inspection, or what ever it is they do, and is fit for use. If people read the CE documents thoroughly they would also understand how the Sub obtained CE approval. The thing is that I doubt that you have tried the Sub, but you choose to sleight it wherever possible. Why not give it a go, you never know, you might even like it and want to buy one for youself. Or is that what your scared of??? My grandfather, like many other respectable people had a simple answer to these situations, DON'T KNOCK IT UNTILL YOU'VE TRIED IT!

I don't believe there are 100 sub units in the uk as frankly I have never ever seen one outside of a dive show. There are probably 100 KISS units in the UK and I have seen loads and know several KISS divers. The SUB users are not very active or vocal on RBW? Which is odd if there are hundreds of them.

I have looked at the SCR Sub but its a SCR and therefore of little use to me. If you have a MCCR Sub i'd be more than happy to do a test dive on it and give an honest opinion on how it compares to the KISS. Give me a date and a place and Ill try to be there.

It is unlikely that the Revo has out sold anything right about now as they just launched it. It is however a very interesting MCCR with several features that make it a better unit than the KISS. The Sub on the other hand is conventional in design and I dont see any features that make it stand out as a forward step in the area of MCCR. That said i am open minded enough to be convinced otherwise if you can point them out.

A few answerers would help:

1: Does the MCCR Sub have CE?

2: Does the Mccr Sub cost £2500 in the UK if not then how much is it?

3: Is it trimix approved?

4: Does it have diluent and 02 manual injection

5: What are the flood recovery systems built in to the unit

6: Does it have a HUD

7: Does it have three cell PP02 monitoring

8: Can It accept a forth cell for integrated decompression linkage

9: Does it have a BOV as standard.

10: Can it function with standard 3ltr tanks?

11: Can it take other tanks like 7ltr and Al40's oif 3 ltr tanks are not available?

12: whats the depth rating?


These are the sort of issues that mean something to me as a ccr diver.


You started the comparison thing between a Sub and a Revo. The revo is the hot topic on RBW because of its clever design features. A lot of divers who already dive CCR are impressed with it. I personally think its fantastic and i want one but I cant say the same for the Sub.

If you think I am wrong explain why? Explain why the Sub is a better unit.

Hears the case for the Revo:

• Low profile twin scrubber design
  
• Sofnalime saving scrubber design ideal for traveling.
  
• Open frame design for counter lungs
  
• Manual add for dill and 02
  
• 3 cell readings with twin displays
  
• Space of in line decompression via 4th cell as standard
  
• No tools required for cell change or scrubber change
  
• Twin HUDS
  
• Light weight design
  
• Integrated tank brackets
  
• Gaged mouthpiece as standard
  
• Single point contact for loop which minimizes failure points
  
• Ability to accept a range of tank sizes and valve types

Whats the case for the Sub?



ATB

Mark Chase

[Garf]

It's black. Debate Over. Now Piss off with your poncy yellow boxes.



Actually, I must admit, having a really good look at the Revo has tempted me to buy a breather for the first time, it's a very smart bit of kit indeed.......