Blue Hole death - a defence, sort of!.

[TerryH]

Originally Posted by Finless

Who decides what is right or acceptable or selfish? Will it be you that makes that decision. At what point do you draw the line?

Well in the speeding & drinking/driving analagy society makes the
distinction between what is and isnt acceptable, with stiff penalties
for those who do.

The local autorities have also the mandate to ensure that diving
(and tourist dollars) doesnt get a bad name. So again society will decide
and like your analgy will have teeth!

Anybody can do anything, personal choice and all that, but in almost
every circumstance there will be some sort of repercussion either to the individual concerned or those around him.

TerryH

[Andrew H]

As seems to happen so often here. No one actually seems to disagree anyway. Not only does any diver have the right to do anything they want to do, but it is simply not possible to stop them. Every year when there is an incident at Dorothea there are new calls for legislation. For what exactly? Unless you actually chain the divers together and tow them through the dive you can't control them in the water. Good risk management tells you that you can't take inexperienced divers or students to places where they can go too deep etc. This is an implicit acceptance of the fact that if they can go deep they will. The legislation danger lies in the control of comercial dive operations. If the boat can't take you to these dive spots you can't do this. Let's hope that the blame stays squarely on the dead, and not on the industry.

The depth obsession hits most of us for a while in the same way that we get a speed obsession in a car, or on a bicycle or skateboard when we were younger. Some of us have the smarts to not get ourselves killed.

Yes it is undeniably selfish to do this, but that changes nothing. The potential misery and stress to everyone involved was doubtless not considered. Considerate people would think it through and if they felt the need to dive that deep on so little air, they would set up appropriately, as do car racers etc.

It is interesting that there is an immediate assumption that someone will recover the body. What is the western obsession with this? I can't see that a post mortem would reveal anything informative. We know the options, just take your pick.

At least this particular nut didn't take anyone else with him as the inconsiderate tend to do.

Andrew

[Simon TW]

Originally Posted by Robert

Sorry, but I have no compassion whatsoever for any Russian divers.
Having attacked two of them on a recent Red Sea trip when they were harassing and trying to ride a young turtle, as far as I'm concerned the fewer Russian divers in the Red Sea the better.
Just my ha'pennorth.

Robert

last year a Italian diver was banned from diving in the Red Sea for life for doing exactly the same thing. Turtles breathe air and need to surface to do it. Not easy with a few hundred kilo of diver on your back.

I don't know how they will enforce such a ban though.

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by Andrew H

The legislation danger lies in the control of comercial dive operations. If the boat can't take you to these dive spots you can't do this. Let's hope that the blame stays squarely on the dead, and not on the industry.


Andrew

Loads snipped - sorry

Just on this point....... this would take one hell of a load of legislation, because at the moment, there is nothing in law which says you must be qualified to undertake diving as a hobby.

After that you get the next problem..... all of the agencies depth limits are "reconmended" not "manditory" so before asking a charter boat to do what you suggest you would have to have all the agency grades have imposed a manditory depth limit - and this would have to be retrospective to cover all existing divers.

In other words, it wont happen in my lifetime.... thank god

[JohnK]

Got to agree - the guy killed himself and did not harm others. I suppose the wishy washy politically correct daisies will say it wasnt his fault - it was the dive centre, his training agency, his mother etc.

[And]

Hi Kirky,

So if a little kid runs out into the road and gets run over, is it his fault or the fault of his 'peers' who should have taught them the green cross code and accompanied them until they could cross the road properly? Am I being too PC here?

I have no problems with guys taking risks and doing dives that get them killed, look at Mark Ellyat and the risks he takes, or JJ and GI, but there has to be some kind of structure to simply prevent 'crossing the road' until they are ready or at least have some idea of what they are doing and the dangers involved.

Andy

[Finless]

Originally Posted by TerryH

Well in the speeding & drinking/driving analagy society makes the distinction between what is and isnt acceptable, with stiff penalties
for those who do.

The local autorities have also the mandate to ensure that diving
(and tourist dollars) doesnt get a bad name. So again society will decide
and like your analgy will have teeth!

Anybody can do anything, personal choice and all that, but in almost
every circumstance there will be some sort of repercussion either to the individual concerned or those around him.

TerryH

Terry,

Perhaps I did not use the best analogies under the circumstances. The point I was trying to make is that driving infractions of the law may be the ultimate in selfishness and that many of US may have indulged in them.


1. I agree that diving to 100 mtrs on a single 11 ltr cylinder SOUNDS suicidal and possibly it is. A bounce dive being what it is might be over within 10 minutes so maybe it is "do able"? Have any of us the experience of a bounce dive to actually know.

2. I have dived to 60 mtrs on air using a single 12 ltr, spent a few minutes on the bottom, zipped up to 40 mtrs and then tracked the divers on the sea bed whilst begining a slow ascent from there to the 3 mtr stop on the boats "hang line". It makes me wonder if a bounce dive (straight down and straight back up again) to 100 mtrs is safely (in terms of sufficient gas) possible on an 11 ltr cylinder.

3. I intensely dislike, as a matter of principal, "should be stopped" or "shouldn't be allowed" as an answer (within certain moral boundaries).

4. I would play the "devil's advocate" as a matter of course.

5. If the diver concerned was qualified then he should know the risks. It may be he has done similar dives before with success - we don't actually know.

6. I doubt that many (if any) of us YDers have any experience of bounce diving.

I would love to hear from anyone who has done a bounce dive.

Rgds
Bryan


Rgds
Bryan

[Mdemon]

Originally Posted by Finless

3. I intensely dislike, as a matter of principal, "should be stopped" or "shouldn't be allowed" as an answer (within certain moral boundaries).

Hear hear.

[Andrew H]

Originally Posted by Skipper

Loads snipped - sorry

Just on this point....... this would take one hell of a load of legislation, because at the moment, there is nothing in law which says you must be qualified to undertake diving as a hobby.

After that you get the next problem..... all of the agencies depth limits are "reconmended" not "manditory" so before asking a charter boat to do what you suggest you would have to have all the agency grades have imposed a manditory depth limit - and this would have to be retrospective to cover all existing divers.

In other words, it wont happen in my lifetime.... thank god

Sorry I might not have been clear. It would be possible to legislate to stop commercial dive boats from putting divers within say 100m of any area where there is a depth of more than 50m. Qualifications of those divers is not necessarily relevant. Daconian yes, but more easily accomplished than more reasonable rules.

Andrew

[Simon TW]

Originally Posted by Andrew H

Sorry I might not have been clear. It would be possible to legislate to stop commercial dive boats from putting divers within say 100m of any area where there is a depth of more than 50m. Qualifications of those divers is not necessarily relevant. Daconian yes, but more easily accomplished than more reasonable rules.

Andrew

It still wouldn't stop this happening at the Blue Hole though, It's a shore dive.