Blue Hole death - a defence, sort of!.

[PaulC]

Originally Posted by bunny

Sorry, but it IS only a recommendation. Padi certifications have no status in law. They may only be certified to dive to 18m, but legally they can do whatever the heck they like.

It's not just a recommendation. It's the limit of your training. Many dive insurance policies cover you only if you are diving within the limits of your training. It doesn't have the force of criminal law (like my driving licence doesn't allow me to drive HGVs and if I do in the UK I am breaking the criminal law), but that doesn't mean it isn't legally significant.

[John Touhig]

It’s been interesting following this debate over the rights and wrongs of undertaking, let face it, an act of gross stupidity. However there are a couple of things I wanted to add to the discussion.

First, yes PADI limits are recommendations but if you exceed your certified depth limit you invalidate your insurance.

Second, one of my other passions, besides diving, is mountaineering. Its widely accepted that when your climbing on the highest mountains in the world notably Everest, is that when it goes wrong no one is put their lives at risk by trying rescue you or to get your body down off the mountain. There are over 100 bodies still on that mountain.

Some poor sod is going to have to dive the Blue Hole and recover the body, this I have a major issue with. An act of stupidity by one person is putting another persons life at risk.

Just my two cents worth…..


John

[Andy Phillips]

Apparently the body has already been recovered.

Andrew

[Bunny]

Originally Posted by PaulC

It's not just a recommendation. It's the limit of your training. Many dive insurance policies cover you only if you are diving within the limits of your training. It doesn't have the force of criminal law (like my driving licence doesn't allow me to drive HGVs and if I do in the UK I am breaking the criminal law), but that doesn't mean it isn't legally significant.

Firstly, let me say that I am not in any way condoning this type of diving being carried out by the irresponsible or ignorant.

But you cannot compare your driving license to your Padi cert. Your driving license IS a legal decoment which entitles you to drive within certain limitations. No you're not allowed to drive and HGV with it. But you are also not allowed to drive ANYTHING without it. At all. (ok, maybe a go-cart).

By contrast, your Padi cert is NOT a legal document, you ARE allowed to dive without any certification whatsoever, and no one can legally stop you. Yes, I agree that diving outside your certs almost invariably invalidates your insurance, but I would hazard a guess that people who are that idiotic about their risk taking activities, that insurance becomes a moot point. But in it's form as a "permit" it has no legal standing whatsoever.

[Finless]

Originally Posted by imported_andyp

Finless,


I didn't say it shouldn't be allowed, just that it was stupid with little or no regard to the consequences for themselves or others.

My apologies, that was a reference to the general tone of the thread rather than your specific post.

Got to say though, done 60M on air, great buzz, and felt like I was still able to function, not certain I would go to 100 though, it is a totally different kettle of fish and I would consider that a great deal more thought should be put nto a dive that deep.

Ditto - although when I'm narked I tend to get more apprehensive. I certainly bailed out to a shallower depth sooner than everyone else on that dive (it was a drift/not a wreck).

What on earth would there be to prove by doing it, to yourself or anyone else.

Because it's there and is doubtless an awesome experience looking back up from that depth? However, I'm not a "depth for the sake of it" diver myself so I doubt if I would ever do it. Anyway, another effect of narcosis on me (I believe) is that the deeper I go the less I specifically remember of the dive. I think I would want to do it on trimix and then get some bottom time and memory of the event.

[exbenzine]

Still being new to YD Forum, I have only made one other post and that was to say hello. I read the posts regularly though and find the variety of attitudes and opinions interesting, shocking and sometimes disturbing.

I have done a few dives and I tend to keep to shallow depths, not for a fear of going deep but for the simple reason that there isn't a lot down there, its dark and its cold too. My max depth so far has been 35m. I have done over 170 dives so i am experienced. It IS dangerous on air going deep. My training involved a lot of talk about different type of narcosis (sp) and at 30m Nitrogen narcosis kicks in. Narcosis isnt optional. Nitrogen is poisonous at depths greater than 30m. At 60m you are probably asking the fish if they want to share your reg!

This diver who died at this blue hole was either inexperienced and didn't know that he/she shouldn't go deep on air, so therefore the industry has to look at its teaching methods, or he/she was experienced but was trying something that was simply an excercise in machismo or he/she was just plain stupid.

If divers wish to go deep then get the proper training. If I want to do extremes of any sport where there is an element of risk, then i need to be trained, prepared, in good health and fit. In an aside, diving is a strenous sport and I see dozens of divers, regularly, approach the waters edge or at the side of the boat, and they are knackered. Get fit to dive and dive regularly. Its common sense and its good for you generally.

This type of incident does affect this industry in a negative way. The families left behind are bereaved of a loved one and are left to pick up the pieces. The rescue agencies are already stretched to the limit yet they have to be called out to incidents that very often should never have occurred in the first place.

The majority of divers practice safe diving and these incidents are relatively rare. (I sound like Nick Ross now from Crimewatch) But we need to keep monitoring the standards and improving. Otherwise regulation will follow. With regulation you remove freedom.

[Deep Thought]

Some of the comments in this discussion are exactly the reason why I don't dive with a club any more.The whole dive nazi " though shalt not do that / dive in that manner " attitude really gets me.
As far as I'm concerned as long as what I do is legal and doesn't hurt anyone else it's up to me what I do with my life .

[Phoenix]

[quote=exbenzine]<snip>
I have done a few dives and I tend to keep to shallow depths, not for a fear of going deep but for the simple reason that there isn't a lot down there, its dark and its cold too. My max depth so far has been 35m. I have done over 170 dives so i am experienced. It IS dangerous on air going deep. My training involved a lot of talk about different type of narcosis (sp) and at 30m Nitrogen narcosis kicks in. Narcosis isnt optional. Nitrogen is poisonous at depths greater than 30m. At 60m you are probably asking the fish if they want to share your reg!
QUOTE]

I was at 60m yesterday and we had around 15m vis and no need for any lights, none of this imagined as I was on 30TX20, my buddy was on air and I didn't see him talking to the fish, too busy steering his scooter.

It was quite cold though, 28C, slightly down on the 29C on the surface, conditions vary around the world, the dive in this threads subject was in the Red Sea, again a lot warmer than around the UK.

Ian

[John Touhig]

Deep Thought,

But the guy has put someone else's life at risk, the poor sod who had to go and recover the body.

Everyone should have the freedom to do anything (legal) they choose to do, but they should consider the consequences for others.

[Andy Phillips]

Originally Posted by Finless

Because it's there and is doubtless an awesome experience looking back up from that depth? However, I'm not a "depth for the sake of it" diver myself so I doubt if I would ever do it. Anyway, another effect of narcosis on me (I believe) is that the deeper I go the less I specifically remember of the dive. I think I would want to do it on trimix and then get some bottom time and memory of the event.

Rather oddly at the Blue Hole, both the Arch and the Bells, I found looking forward and down was the most inspiring, up was pretty good also. Helium was certainly my friend on those dives. My head was so clear and my memories will stay, certainly on the Bells dive the sight of looking down at the sand some 30M ~ 40M below me (at that point I was at 80M) as well as the way it dissapeared off into the distance is one of my lasting diving memories.
On the Arch, there were a couple of sharks that shot off, they must have been at 140M, don't think they expected us to be there, gave them quite a surprise.

I strongly recomend it. We are going back later this year.

Andrew