Blue Hole death - a defence, sort of!.

[Finless]

Originally Posted by exbenzine

I have done a few dives and I tend to keep to shallow depths, not for a fear of going deep but for the simple reason that there isn't a lot down there, its dark and its cold too. My max depth so far has been 35m. I have done over 170 dives so i am experienced. It IS dangerous on air going deep. My training involved a lot of talk about different type of narcosis (sp) and at 30m Nitrogen narcosis kicks in. Narcosis isnt optional. Nitrogen is poisonous at depths greater than 30m. At 60m you are probably asking the fish if they want to share your reg!

This diver who died at this blue hole was either inexperienced and didn't know that he/she shouldn't go deep on air, so therefore the industry has to look at its teaching methods, or he/she was experienced but was trying something that was simply an excercise in machismo or he/she was just plain stupid.

Firstly, I have to say I disagree with most parts of your above statement. To say there is "not a lot down there" is frankly, rubbish. There are any number of wrecks in that kind of depth not to mention awesome rock formations and, for some, the experience is enough (especially in good vis).

I have dived to 60 mtrs on air (once) and had no urge to share my regs with fish (just as well as there were none that I could see). It was an awesome experience being able to see all the way to the surface and was one of those moments that will stay in my mind for as long as I have one.

Unless you have the facts about the incident then your opinions of the deceased diver are pure speculation. As I have intimated the diver in question may have been a regular "bouncer" who had done this before. Maybe he only intended to go to 50 mtrs and suffered problems? Are you certain you are not just taking the attitude "I wouldn't do it so anyone who does is stupid?". It may well have been the ultimate in stupidity for this person to attemp that dive BUT we don't know many facts.

Too many people seem to basing their opinions based on what is in the manuals rather than from experience. I am pushing myself slowly into deeper diving and learning what I can and can'/won't do through experience and acquiring new skills as I perceive I need them.

I'm sorry, I am not trying to be aggresive (it is difficult replying in as few words as poss without sounding annoyed) but I can not agree with your comments at all. Facts may yet prove your thoughts on the deceased diver to be 100% correct but, until then ....

[Finless]

Originally Posted by GasMuncher2

Some poor sod is going to have to dive the Blue Hole and recover the body, this I have a major issue with. An act of stupidity by one person is putting another persons life at risk.

Just my two cents worth…..

John

John,

I can not imagine being faced with the task of deliberately having to dive to recover a dead body. I am sure that if the dive had been considered too dangerous then the body would have been left where it was or, maybe, an ROV could have done the task.

What I am trying to say is that the people who do these jobs are trained to do them and are not forced into them. The diver(s) who recovered the bodies would probably dive these kinds of depths anyway. As with our UK Lifeboat men, I can't imagine them thinking "oh no, we've got a shout".

I am guilty of "supposing" here but I can't imagine anyone doing the job unless they got some satisfaction from doing it (even if it is just knowing they have helped the bereaved in having a body to inter and grave to visit)?

Bryan

[David Wallace]

Originally Posted by PaulC

It's not just a recommendation. It's the limit of your training. Many dive insurance policies cover you only if you are diving within the limits of your training. It doesn't have the force of criminal law (like my driving licence doesn't allow me to drive HGVs and if I do in the UK I am breaking the criminal law), but that doesn't mean it isn't legally significant.

I'm not even going to comment on the analogy between a diving certificate and a driving license - thats been done in another place

A diving certificate may be legally significant when;

1) "diving at work" because the HSE has a whole bunch of Acops and your at work not on a pleasure dive...rg a diving instructor who makes a commercial gain from intructing will be expected to have a qualification from a nationally recognised body, certiying him as competant in providing the training. Whereas if your mate asks you to show you how all these "bits of diving gear work" and you nip in off the shore to try them out - there is no commercial gain and no requirement for a certificate to train. (although if something went wrong there would be quite a few land sharks around who would attempt litigation on behalf of the family)

2)"club dives" - club dives are only club dives when approved by the diving officer and carried out within the governing bodies Safe Diving Practives(SDP)
So, when a club dive consists of someone diving outside the SDP which includes maximum reconmended depths being violated and something goes wrong............ The DO and the committee may (note the word may) be liable

So in summary if you are not on a sanctioned Club dive and not making commercial gain, then diving outside your qualification is a no issue.

By the way, I recon about 50% of the divers on my charter boat are regularly diving outside whichever agencys recommendations!

eg PADI AOWD reconmended 30m
or PADI divers (excluding TEC REC) regularly undertaking DECO dives

need I go on????

Moving on to insurance, best take a good policy out before you take up diving.

Some allow you to dive within your qualifications.....easy answer - do a SDI solo dive course and that covers most things

Once you get beyond what the insurance companies consider "recreational" and that seems to be once your deeper that 30m and undertake deco dives of dive with Nitrox or even Trimix!!! god forbid a rebreathers....... you had better read the small print very carefully. I was very honest with my insurers 5 years ago and they jacked the insurance premiums up so high I couldnt afford them. they eventually relented but changed all the life policies to specifically exclude any payout in the event that Diving was a contributing factor in death.


regards

[Finless]

Originally Posted by Skipper

)I was very honest with my insurers 5 years ago and they jacked the insurance premiums up so high I couldnt afford them. they eventually relented but changed all the life policies to specifically exclude any payout in the event that Diving was a contributing factor in death.
regards

What complete and utter bastards!! Don't they understand the amount of care and attention to details us divers put into deeper diving (well, most of us). We are a damn sight safer as a risk than driving say.

This is the one part about diving I am unhappy about. If I die and the insurance don't pay out then the significant other would be in a position of not being able to pay off the mortgage.

Have I any faith in the insurance paying up if I die? Not really, I figure they will find some way to worm out of it if they can! Maybe having done one or two dives below my TDI cert level may already invalidate my insurance for the future?

[Andy Phillips]

Insurance for me is one of the major reasons I don't dive below (well much below) my cert level. It is certainly the major reason why I got the Advanced Trimix ticket which gets me to 120M. As recreational divers, and this is with a lawyer friend of mine who works in corporate law. As long as we dive within our certified limits, are diving for recreational purposes only then we are insured. I informed my insyrance company that I went below normal recreational limits (30M as recognised by the companies) and was charded an extra £23.67 per year on the mortgage life insurance. The company insurance was unaffected. DAN also state in there insurance that you are insured to your cert level or if you are training to the level to which you are being trained.

Andrew

[John Touhig]

Bryan,

Your point is well made, and I agree, most of the rescue services people I have spoken to (both professional and volunteer) do the job because they want too and not because thery're paid too.

The vast majority of us who take part in sports and activities that carry higher risks do as much as we can to mitigate some of the risks. IMHO the guy who did the dive neither considered the risks to his own life nor the life of the person who would have to recover him.

I agree that the recovery diver would have been equiped and trained for such a deep dive but this does not make it OK in my mind.

Let me pose another question, if I was a newly qualified PADI OW diver and posted on YD that my next dive (my 9th in total) was going to be 50m on air. How would people on the forum react.

John

[Finless]

Originally Posted by GasMuncher2

Let me pose another question, if I was a newly qualified PADI OW diver and posted on YD that my next dive (my 9th in total) was going to be 50m on air. How would people on the forum react.
John

John,

In general the response would be - you 'kin numpty, don't be ridiculous! Especially if you were diving in the UK. This would also be my response.

If I change tack and say, when I first learned to dive, I was best mates with one of the instructors and soon became friends with the other instructors. Before completing my AOW course I was doing the odd accompanied dive down to 35 mtrs (this was 25 or more years ago). Depth was not a worry and diving was easy, my breathing rates were better than some of the instructors (no stress)....... Can you see where I am going with this.

Diving, to quote a phrase, is not rocket science. One thing we all have to understand is diving can kill you but I just think we (well, me specifically) get so caught up in the safety issue that we forget to have fun or be a little adventurous. I can remember feeling a bit panicky the first time I saw my computer exceed a 1.4 ppO2 and expecting an O2 hit any second. Maybe OW divers expect to self combust if they excede the 18 mtr limit

In answer to your question - if you were good enough, accompanied by the right diver and the conditions were suitable - why the hell shouln't you do a drop to 50 mtrs and straight back up again.

I know, I'm a disappointment to you all.

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Finless

but I just think we (well, me specifically) get so caught up in the safety issue that we forget to have fun or be a little adventurous.

Very true.

I think it's a difficult balance (especially in these litigious times) between safety and adventurousness (sp?).

There have been occasions when I've woken up and thought: "hmmm, not so sure if I'm up for diving today, the viz was crap yesterday and today's dive is a bit deep, dark and nasty, maybe I'll just go back to sleep and skip the dive." However someone's told me to stop fannying around and get my kit on the boat and in the end I've had a cracking day out.

Nowadays it seems that someone only has to find a grey hair and everyone's around them giving them a hug and asking them if they're up to doing the dive. (Well not exactly but you know what I mean.)

Having said that, I'm quite happy for people to call a dive at any time. If you're ever diving with me and you want to pull out at any time above or below the water then tell me and that's fine. It's just that some of my best dives have been with people (much better divers than me) who have said don't worry we'll look after you. If I'd really said "No. I'm uncomfortable with this dive" then for sure we'd have aborted, but as I was in too minds anyway they tipped the scales.

It's just getting that balance between safety / adventurousness right. And it's a tough one to judge.

Hum. I've not explained myself very well in this post, but hopefully you get the general idea.

Sorry if I'm wandering off topic a bit.

Laters,
Janos

[Snash]

Originally Posted by GasMuncher2

Let me pose another question, if I was a newly qualified PADI OW diver and posted on YD that my next dive (my 9th in total) was going to be 50m on air. How would people on the forum react.

John

I'd react by keeping an eye out on e-bay for when your kit comes up for sale

Regards

Simon

[John Touhig]

Simon,

At least you'd wait until it was on e-bay, a couple of years ago on a climbing trip to Scotland I was volunteered to abasil down the top of one of the routes to check the ice conditions. No sooner than I was over the edge, hanging 700ft above the bottom of the corrie than the two gentlemen from Liverpool who were with me at the time, had dived straight into my rucksack to see if I had any nice shinny bits of kit they could "borrow"....


A bit (lot?) off topic , sorry Bren.....


John