BSAC Move on - Well Done

[Paul Oliver]

Dear Divers

Just read the new BSAC e-bulletin and i see that they have a working group working on getting Nitrox qualifications into the mainstream Dive Training Programme so divers will get their trox qual within their dive qual. Top stuff i say and the way ahead.

Hopefully Basic at OD and Advanced at SD.

Well done BSAC for listening to membership requests.

This is part of the follow up to a membership survey.

They are also moving along well on the YBOD front.

Dive Safe, Dive Nitrox,

Paul

[David Martin]

Originally Posted by Paul Oliver

Just read the new BSAC e-bulletin and i see that they have a working group working on getting Nitrox qualifications into the mainstream Dive Training Programme so divers will get their trox qual within their dive qual. Top stuff i say and the way ahead.

Excellent news!

Hopefully Basic at OD and Advanced at SD.

Basic at OD would be great.

Advanced at SD would not. IMO, a newly qualified SD should not be carrying 50%.

OTOH IMO, It would be great if SDs were able to:
a) use any mix up to 40%, and
b) carry out deco dives with nitrox
BUT were not permitted to carry any mix below its MOD.

Then, go to something that permitted accelerated deco. And required competancy with stages, run times etc.

David
(FTR, a BSAC Nitrox Instructor)

[iainmsmith]

Originally Posted by David Martin

Excellent news!

Basic at OD would be great.

Advanced at SD would not. IMO, a newly qualified SD should not be carrying 50%.

OTOH IMO, It would be great if SDs were able to:
a) use any mix up to 40%, and
b) carry out deco dives with nitrox
BUT were not permitted to carry any mix below its MOD.

Then, go to something that permitted accelerated deco. And required competancy with stages, run times etc.

Agreed. Especially if they decided that all instructors who have done the Advanced Nitrox Course should automatically be able to teach it. That would be terrifying.

On the other hand, if they realigned course content as above, then they could get rid of the Advanced course and go to: OD (32% & 36%), SD (any mix to 40% inc. deco) and have SD with x number of dives involving decompression as the entry point for ERD.

Next stop: Triox at DL and an end to deep air!

Iain
[Also a BSAC NXI]

[louigi]

Originally Posted by David Martin

Excellent news!



Basic at OD would be great.

Advanced at SD would not. IMO, a newly qualified SD should not be carrying 50%.

OTOH IMO, It would be great if SDs were able to:
a) use any mix up to 40%, and
b) carry out deco dives with nitrox
BUT were not permitted to carry any mix below its MOD.

Then, go to something that permitted accelerated deco. And required competancy with stages, run times etc.

David
(FTR, a BSAC Nitrox Instructor)

Sorry fella but I dont see your point, if you have taught the corse corectly then your students should understand how to use these mixes safely.
personaly I dive nitrox nearly all the time and have done scince passing advanced nitrox as a newly qualified sports diver.
Further more lets see how you intend to police some of the point's that you have made.
It will and always has depended upon the attitude of the individual, sports diver, dive leader or otherwise.

[AirHog]

One of our AIs said something along these lines just after I finished my Basic Nitrox written paper after the pool session last night.

I think I agree with Louigi on this one - if the course is taught correctly then divers at any (appropriate) level should be ok with the mixes they have qualified on. SDs can take the combined or the advanced nitrox now so there wouldn't be that much of a difference, just the 20 mandatory dives since SD qualification

Regards

Mark

[Paul Oliver]

Originally Posted by AirHog

SDs can take the combined or the advanced nitrox now so there wouldn't be that much of a difference, just the 20 mandatory dives since SD qualification

Yes, this would be my view on it, and built into the DTP or QRB the same experience build up that is in the current quals, so you do the SD sylabus then have to gain experience to use the full qual, so depth progression and tech progression.

Managing a stage bottle and reg is not too difficult, no where near as difficult as managing buoyency correctly in many cases.

To me if you are doing a deco dive it should be done on Nitrox as air is Cr*p for deco, so in the same vain if you are qual to do deco do it on the right gas.

Just my view, don't think they will be that bold, but you never know.

Dive Safe, dive Nitrox

Paul

[Brass Monkey]

Originally Posted by David Martin

Advanced at SD would not. IMO, a newly qualified SD should not be carrying 50%.

We can’t have that can we, I mean that would imply a level of trust in their judgment and abilities. One could even say that it implies that they had learnt something on the advanced course. Goodness no not here, we better leave that kind of thinking to the Americans.


Dave.

[Dave Crampton]

Originally Posted by David Martin

Excellent news!



Basic at OD would be great.

Advanced at SD would not. IMO, a newly qualified SD should not be carrying 50%.
...

David
(FTR, a BSAC Nitrox Instructor)

Dave,

I would beg to differ. I see your a Nitrox Instructor also.

My point here is, just because one is allowed to use > EAN40, doesn't automatically mean that everyone will. I think the whole point of training divers to use Nitrox before they can go off and get it is that, they, once trained, should be well aware of 'how to use it correctly'.

I am TDI ADV nitrox, able to purchase pure O2. From the course, I took away that, > EAN40 is only really suitable/nessessary for Deco. If I'm using a nitrox mix as dive gas, then theroretically I should not require any 'deco gas', as I will incure less deco penatly, if at all, than on diving on Air alone.

Currently I dive on singles and I have yet do a dive which demands decompression, of any type/length which would nessessitate using anything approaching EAN80. All my dives to date, have been no stop dives. On the course I completed, I learned that, just because I am allowed to go buy it, doesn't nessessarilymean I need it on a dive. I have only used > EAN40 twice. Once on my Nitrox training dives and once whist buddying my partner on her Adv Nitrox Training dives. Other than that I use air as a dive gas as my cylinder are not Nitrox suitable. I do get premix dileuted to the right mix for the planned dive depth if I can guarrentee the depth of a dive. I've not done any Deco courses, and only dive well within my limits as a BSAC Sports diver. Therefore I really don't need a deco gas.

My point is, the importance of doing an advanced course is 'what the course teaches you' and 'not what you can then go buy with it'. If I understand your post right, it is that a newly qualified SD might not have sufficient experience to be able to use > EAN40 correctly. But any course and instructor worth their salt will teach the diver how to correctly plan the dive, decide on the mix for the chosen depth and use the gas, so that the diver has the knowledge to be able to use the correct mix and safely.

I'm sure you'll agree there will always be a foolish diver who goes out buying pure O2 to Deco on, once they have the qualification, and yes a greater experience will help to reduce their eagerness to do this but there will always be a foolish few. Perhaps its up to the Instructors to train students how to use Nitrox Correctly and not just how to use Nitrox. I mean no disrespect to you as I see you are a instructor. I chose a very experienced Instructor and not the local guy who operates a dive boat and teaches scuba locally, who is also qualifed to teach Nitrox but I don't know how often.

I personally qualified to dive nitrox as an OD. I am currently a SD.

Dave C

[louigi]

I think we are getting away from the original sentiment of this post, and yes it's a big congrats to BSAC for getting it's head out of the sand bucket for once and dareing to lead where others may follow once again.

[David Martin]

Originally Posted by Luigi

Sorry fella but I dont see your point, if you have taught the corse corectly then your students should understand how to use these mixes safely.
personaly I dive nitrox nearly all the time and have done scince passing advanced nitrox as a newly qualified sports diver.

Luigi, my students are fully capable of using the mixes that I've certified them on. However, they are not newly qualified SDs. I could take a newly qualified SD and teach them to be competant. However, teaching a newly qualified SD to be competant to carry and use a stage of 50% is a significantly higher skill than to teach them to use a single gas mix. This will add time and money to qualifying people as "new-style" SDs.

The level of skill required to safely conduct a deco dive on a single nitrox mix is very similar to that which a SD currently has/requires.

The new skills are:
some theory
gas analysis
realising that the consequences of breaching an MOD are more serious than going "just deeper" on a "normal" plan.

This [single nitrox mix, deco dives] could certainly be taght to new SDs without much issue. Their diving would be safer, due to the nitrox, with limited extra risk.

Carrying a mix below it's MOD is a significantly more complex skill. It is certainly possible to teach this to SDs, but it would significantly lengthen the SD course.

Requiring all SDs to learn to use stages would (IMO) be a mistake. Many SDs will not want to EVER use a stage. Many others will not want to start using them for a while. There are several small female divers that struggle to stand up in a 15L, requiring them to use a stage might drive them away from diving.

Midwater DSMB deployments and Stage switches require the diver's buoyancy skills to be completely squared-away so that they can focus on something else mid-water.

I see no need for every SD to be able to carry a stage of 50% following the course. The skill level of most newly qualified SDs is in my opinion not good enough to do this. The skill level of many "more experienced" divers is not good enough to do this.

Originally Posted by DCrampt

My point is, the importance of doing an advanced course is 'what the course teaches you' and 'not what you can then go buy with it'. If I understand your post right, it is that a newly qualified SD might not have sufficient experience to be able to use > EAN40 correctly. But any course and instructor worth their salt will teach the diver how to correctly plan the dive, decide on the mix for the chosen depth and use the gas, so that the diver has the knowledge to be able to use the correct mix and safely.

My point was that a newly qualified SD at the moment does not have enough experience to conduct a 2 gas dive. If all new SDs were to receive such a qualification it would mean that either:
The teaching & skills requirement in SD was increased higher OR
People were qualified in things that they were not competant in.

Any course worth it's salt won't try to put inappropriate skills at too early a level. A SD with approx 12 dives does not need to dive take a stage of 50% for his/her deco.

When the diver is ready to learn such skills, then he should be taught them. Otherwise the student and/or instructor are wasting their time.

The "sign-off" that the diver is competant to buy and use stages of 50% as deco gas, shouldn't happen after 20 dives, nor should we rely upon the new SD to know when he's ready. We currenly have an assessment system, with Nitrox instructors making the decision as to the person's competant. Any future system of qualifications needs a proper assessment of this sort.

If this assessment is to take place after the qualification has been issued, why bother including it in SD? It's not the same as the as the depth progressions, that we currenly assess post-qual.

If enough people want to use 50% (in a non-accelerated capacity) then an SDC like the current ANX course could be run. However, I'd prefer to see it acknowledgeed that the real use for rich mixes is to accelerate stops, and design the courses around this.


Lastly, to pick up upon Iain's point:
Which instructors are going to be able to teach an SD course including ANX?
A - All instructrors?
B - All instructors who've completed ANX?
C - All instructors who are/become Nitrox instructors?

If A or B: please see the concerns above about "any instructor worth his salt...."
If C: we're going to have a big problem getting enough instructors to teach the courses, especially given the inevitable expansion in teaching time from the current SD course.

David