Diver standards

[John Gulliver]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mark Davies @ Aug. 08 2003,20:19)]This then leads to too many divers only ever going diving when they're doing a course. Before you know it they're instructors themselves having never gone on a dive just for fun.

Well, that may be true in the UK but certainly not here in Sweden, nor, I believe, in most other countries. The PADI instructors I know are all extremely comptetent and experienced divers. I'd be willing to bet that they dive more "just for fun" than most people on this forum and most of them had done a LOT more than 100 dives before becoming instructors. At least here in Sweden, you have to be good to become a PADI instructor. With all respect, I wonder how many of the people that have suggested otherwise would make the grade.

[JohnR]

Thought I'd chip in with a few comments on some of these issues.

1. General Standards
In my (very humble) opinion, basic level dive standards have been dropping progressively over years.  Whilst there have been improvements in many areas (such as kit, some practices - eg use of pony cyl,  AAS, better tables etc) the courses have become "weaker" in their content.  For instance, comparing the "old" BSAC entry level  (3rd Class) to the current "Ocean Diver".  This involved a fairly harsh swim test, then you had to train and qualify as a snorkel diver (pool and open water) before progressing to SCUBA.  There then followed a series of theory and pool lessons with 2 pool tests.  Open water training next, another assesment, and then 10 dives in varying conditions. New system is 7 theory lessons (the first is an intro to BSAC politics and regime), 5 pool lessons and 5 (but can be done in 4) open water dives.

This "dumming down" of the entry level training appears purely based on the need to speed up qualifiaction to compete with other agencies.

BSAC themselves recognise the disparity between the old and the new entry levels and anyone who has the old 3rd class diver is credited as a Sports Diver in the new regime.

As far as PADI are concerned I cannot comment on the content of the courses as I have no direct experience.  However here's a few nuggets that I've personally seen / heard in the past 3-4 weeks, all from PADI OW or AOW divers. I'll leave you to make your own judgement.

i.  while kitting up, diver attempts to attach BC to cylinder upside down so the shoulder straps are at the bottom.  Then can't work out why the direct feed doesn't reach very well.

ii.  diver turns up for 2 dive boat trip with no watch, no depth gauge, and no computer (no brain?).

iii.  diver complained of freeflowing reg (before dive) and wasting all of the oxygen from the bottle.  The reg was probably freeflowing because she'd just dragged it through the sand and then hit it on the side of the boat (twice).  The "oxygen bottle" looked just like an 11litre aly of air to me.

iv.  2 divers + divemaster/ instructor going for 3rd dive of the day - the surface interval after 2nd dive was just (literally) long enough to get out of the water, change cylinders, and get back in again.  I didn't see them consult tables and only the DM had a computer.

v.  2 OW divers on AOW course whose bouyancy was so bad that they mangaged to bounce of the coral at 15m  1 minute and then be almost at the surface the next.  Their instructor (who I was chatting with after the dive)  said that they were by no means the worst.  I asked why didn't they focus more on bouyancy control than say photography / deep dive etc.  The answer - it doesn't sell as well.

2. Instructors
Following on from above, I agree with other posts on this subject that instructors must shoulder the responsibility. I've recently heard (hearsay this bit) of 2 OW divers who completed all open water skills  / dives in 1 day in 2m of water at the same site.  

I have since met and spoken with a couple who were concerned that their training was lacking. They too had completed all of their PADI OW skills / dives at 1 site, in 1 day, but they had managed to get to 3 m!  As PADI OW they were presumably then qualified to go to 18m?

3.  Clubs
Although I am a member of a BSAC club, we welcome divers of any agency to join and to dive with us.   We only ask that if they wish to train with us, that it is to the BSAC syllabus and they then must obviously join BSAC.  Otherwise they can dive and gain experience as they desire.  If they want to coninue to train with another agency, they can do so and still be a club member, but must not use club kit. We have several other agency instructors in our club (PADI, SSI) who can assist if required.  We have found that our open door policy contributes to the club wellbeing, but it also allows newly qualified divers (eg PADI OW) to gain dive experience without having to pay for additional courses. We get a lot of PADI OW divers who then switch and start on BSAC sports diver.

Well I've prattled on for a while but I hope I've raised a few points to think about.

[daz]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (andy2tanx @ Aug. 08 2003,17:12)]

Nice one daz.  But why don't you just get those folk to join YD?  Getting people together from their own and different regions was what we wanted to do with YD in the first place...

Good point Andy,

Many of the guys who are already in the informal club/mob/Bristol Massive have been introduced to YD such as Wacker, Mikael and Cider_I_Up (who is busy lurking) but it is an excuse to get together and plan the fine detail of the trips,  sometimes you just can't beat a face to face to sort everything out.

And the fact that some of them are real ludites who still don't have regular access to the internet or claim they do not have time to check the boards regurlarly due to work (Change job I say )

I like to think of it as 'YD south west contingent' get together on a regular basis.

As Wacker will atest I don't miss a chance to plug YD to anyone who will listen and even those who don't.

Oh and the meeting place will probably be a pub, Need I say more.  Somehow a real beer tastes so much sweeter than a virtual beer.

I think the fact that Wacker has come up with the idea (An idea he has been toying with for some time) and the fact that I am keen to be involved will ensure that it just complements YD and what it HAS achieved.

Daz

[daz]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (John Gulliver @ Aug. 08 2003,20:23)]

Well, that may be true in the UK but certainly not here in Sweden, nor, I believe, in most other countries. The PADI instructors I know are all extremely comptetent and experienced divers. I'd be willing to bet that they dive more "just for fun" than most people on this forum and most of them had done a LOT more than 100 dives before becoming instructors. At least here in Sweden, you have to be good to become a PADI instructor. With all respect, I wonder how many of the people that have suggested otherwise would make the grade.

John,

Firstly this is not PADI bashing.. I am PADI trained all the way..

In the main I would agree with you, most of the instructors I have met are good competent instructors but it is possible to become a PADI OWSI with barely the minimum number of dives (100) and some people do (I have personally met 2 and heard of others).

The IE is an artificial situation it is not the real world, the IDC teaches you how to pass the IE, it is not a substitute for experience .  

Controversial bit here I am afraid....  Unfortunatly you do not have to be good to be a PADI instructor in Sweden or anywhere.  You have to meet the requirements of the IE and the requirements are worldwide not regional.   Don't get me wrong I am not saying the IE is easy, far from it, but you can practise and prepare for what the IE entails to the point where the theory, skills circuit and presentation is second nature.   A bit of good fortune on the student scenarios and... well need I say more.

Daz

[Phil Ennis]

<font color='#0000FF'>If the IDC is conducted correctly then it most certainly does not teach you how to pass an IE, it teaches you how to conduct the PADI programs. Again a lot of heresay and a bloke in the pub told me going on here. &nbsp;

Yes there are crap Instructors out there, report them to PADI, if you know or believe there has been a breach of standards then report it, if they dont know about it then they cant do anything about it.

[daz]

Agreed, slightly flippant, maybe I am not doing the IDC justice, &nbsp; an IDC does teach an individual how to conduct the PADI programs and if done properly the majority of the IE should be a formality, like the presentations etc..

My point is that it is possible for fast track instructor to meet the requirements to pass an IE but not have much real diving experience, they can deal with the artificial scenarios but how will they cope the first time they take three students in the water and one throws a panic and another decides to spit his reg out etc...

Like I said I am not bashing PADI but I am not sure that 100 dives are really a realistic minimum number.

FWIW.. &nbsp;I am doing my AI after 18 months as a DM so I do understand what is involved and how much effort is required but that is only half the picture, &nbsp;gaining diving experience counts for a lot as does working with Instructors who are working with Students.

Daz

[Paul Oliver]

Hi all,

In BSAC DTP 2002 an OD can dive with another OD. However my branch and i beleve most others stick to the old system of OD with DL or above, SD with SD. All diving is actually under the supervision of a DM, who is appointed by the DO who is responsible for etc, etc (follow the buck passing back to the DO - someone to hang at the end of the enquiry).

Most BSAC branches treat OD as a trg milestone. Very few UK dives are suitable (by the book) for anyone less than SD, none out of Dover.

I have several SD i will not allow to dive with less than an AD, and several OD i will let dive with anyone with reasonable experience. Personal skills after training and tempriment count the most with me.

I strongly agree with getting the new diver in open water as soon as possible. Get them in the local enviroment to see if they like it and before many waste money on a sport they will not persue. Thats why we provide all basic kit (BC, Semi, Tank, Regs, Mask, Fins, Snork, weights) for the first year member at no extra cost. We have stringent pool and lake assesments before taking them off Dover though. Their first dive off Dover will normally be with me as well, and i am used to short dives as they hoover through their air.

Getting the trainee in OW and doing lessons at depth is very much the BSAC ethos now. I totally agree with the points raised at the start of this post though. Far to many inexperienced divers are not self relient enough, they reliy far to much on the DM/Instructor to look after them.

This however is the backbone of the BSAC system, once you have completed your training the branch take you diving and look after you by pairing you off with the right person and progressing your development.

No BSAC v PADI BS, but my favourite training quote:-

On most courses only 50% of the content is relevant, and most courses only teach you at most 50% of what you need to know. The rest is experience and continuation training.

Cor, i laboured that a bit,

Regards

Paul

[daz]

You have to got to admire it... &nbsp;

3 pages on a thread that started with the topic Diver standards and not one slanging match of PADI vs BSAC etc.

Right who want's to be the first one to post the same topic on handbagnet and see what happens &nbsp;

Light blue touch paper and step well back..

Daz

[Wacker]

<font color='#0000FF'>well
the thing I have the biggest bug bear with, is the fact that one of the most used safty items in the UK is not traind as part of the padi course!
Yep you know it as the good old SMB......
wax

[Phil Ennis]

<font color='#0000FF'>You hit the nail on the head Daz, you learn a great deal as a DM. My DM course took me 5 months full time, sometimes there 7 days a week working with real students. As people will state on this site, they qualified as DM with the minimum 60 dives and are probably good DM's. I had a lot more dives than that before I started the DM course.

How many dives does it take before you could become an instructor in your opinions. There are Dm's with the minimum 60 who are good and there are those who are not. You cannot judge an individual so you have to put a minimum dive limit and then let the system, the IDC and the IE weed out the weak.