Diver standards

[jasondrake]

Just a poll to see if people think that the standards required of students for a BASIC CERTIFICATION are good enough.

I'm talking PADI Open Water, BSAC Ocean Diver (is that out of date?) etc. Are these new divers, supposedly certified to dive without supervision, fit and safe to dive? Would higher standards put people off? Is diving getting dumbed down at the risk of peoples lives?

[LesleySS]

Personally, with regards to PADI OW, I feel that it is too soon to assume that a person can dive independently after completing just this course - I was far too nervous to venture with just a buddy and made sure I did quite a few dives before completing my AOW which I felt gave me the confidence to dive without a guide/instructor.

I think the limits should be raised on when you can strat training as a professional/instructor - at the moment, there are too many people throwing themselves into instructor courses when they only have a limited amount of experience under their belt.  This does not fill me with confidence at all!

[Dr Stevil]

Ah.... it depends on how standards are deployed, for instance in my old club new divers , the old Club Diver which is equivalent of Ocean Diver (yes, BSAC have chopped and changed titles a bit over the past few years) was most definately NOT allowed to dive without supervision and had to be buddied with a dive Leader. Only as Sport Diver level were they ok'ed to dive with equivalent or higher grade divers, even then it would depend on the site, depth & experience.
IMO & IME (no rucks please) the typical OW is no where near as capable as a CD/OD, AOW is more like it, I think OW is really only a "resort" grade, which is very useful but very limited

Steve

[Dave Crampton]

Hi Jason,

I've just completed my Open Water qual with my local BSAC club. Our club Dive Officer told us we're not allowed to dive unescorted, i.e. with another OW diver. The minimim qualification we're allowed to dive with (in the club I'm a member of) is experienced Sports Diver or Dive Leader. I think Ocean Diver is now called Open Water Diver, and Club Diver is now called Sports Diver, although I'm sure some kind person will correct me. Perhaps one of the Senior Divers on YD, who has experience of both organisations would care to elaborate?

Dave C  

[daz]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Steve W @ Aug. 08 2003,14:24)]Ah.... it depends on how standards are deployed, for instance in my old club new divers , the old Club Diver which is equivalent of Ocean Diver (yes, BSAC have chopped and changed titles a bit over the past few years) was most definately NOT allowed to dive without supervision and had to be buddied with a dive Leader. Only as Sport Diver level were they ok'ed to dive with equivalent or higher grade divers, even then it would depend on the site, depth & experience.
IMO & IME (no rucks please) the typical OW is no where near as capable as a CD/OD, AOW is more like it, I think OW is really only a "resort" grade, which is very useful but very limited

Steve

Don't know to be honest Steve,  just because I have not had experience of diving with CD or OD...  But I don't doubt it for one moment.  

One of the problems is that the OW divers do not have experience of diving for divings sake (If you know where I am coming from on this)...  AOW does give them the opportunity to do extra dives that are if you like proper dives while still under supervision to some degree.

I think that many newly qualified OW and even AOW divers could benefit from getting at least an addition dozen OW dives in with another experienced diver.

But we must not lose sight of the fact that the OW qual trains people to dive in conditions similar to those experienced on their OW course....

The car driving test analogy is a very good example IMHO.

Daz

[tas]

I completed the BSAC Ocean Diver course in May or June. I don't have the manual here at work but I remember that Ocean Diver qualifies me to dive no-stop to 20m with a person of the same or higher qualification under the supervision of a Dive Marshall. So there are limitations.

In our club they almost always try to mix the pairs so that a more experienced diver is with a less experienced one, or someone who knows the site is with someone who doesn't, or in whatever way is best to make up for any "deficiencies". This suits me as I get to go diving, and I get to play with my mates - brilliant!

It's very difficult, imho, to judge an entire training regime when so much depends on individual instructors and individual students. There are some who think that 5 minutes with their head in the kitchen sink qualifies them to dive in the English Channel - other, wiser, people progress slowly from the sink to the bathtub ( )

The best thing that our course taught us was that there was no need to take any chances. The sea will still be there tomorrow.

tas

[Dave Crampton]

I'm I right (or wrong) in thinking PADI allow divers to go from one course up to the next or is there a minimum number of dives you have to complete to qualify for the upgraders course?

Dave C

[Dominic]

I think it's a tricky one - given that basic certification doesn't actually certify you to leap into the water and do whatever dives you like whenever you want, it's very hard to say it needs to be better.

Basic grading just means you're capable of going into the water and coming back up without doing anything stupid.

BSAC insists on you diving with more experienced divers and having the DO's approval when you're newly qualified.

PADI says you must only dive in conditions equal to or better than what you trained in, and tho it tends not to be pointed out often, PADI divers are trained with two or more rescue divers with them at all times - so technically have to have rescue divers watching over them them on any dive they want to do.

So as basic qualifications, I think they're fine. But if you mean are they good enough to give the newby the knowledge and skill to be able to plan and execute a dive in safety on their own, then no, of course they're not.

[And]

Hi

I voted couldn't care less, as its the instructor who decides the standard of the pupil. Qualifying on holiday and then bimbling about on a reef dive is different to a 20 mtr wreck dive in March at Farnes. Our BSAC club still matches up club/ocean divers with Dive leaders until they have built up some experience, despite the qualification, and this pretty much takes place until they have reached sports diver stage. So I don't really care what the agencies say, as our club has a sensible policy, and I will only dive with those people who are able to do the dive IMO.

As for holiday diving they are following the dive leader and in my experience most divers have been OK as they are still focussed on what they have learnt, its the experienced divers who get complacent that end up screwing up.

Just my balanced opinion of course

Andy

[Dr Stevil]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (dcrampt @ Aug. 08 2003,14:31)]Hi Jason,

I've just completed my Open Water qual with my local BSAC club. Our club Dive Officer told us we're not allowed to dive unescorted, i.e. with another OW diver. The minimim qualification we're allowed to dive with (in the club I'm a member of) is experienced Sports Diver or Dive Leader. I think Ocean Diver is now called Open Water Diver, and Club Diver is now called Sports Diver, although I'm sure some kind person will correct me. Perhaps one of the Senior Divers on YD, who has experience of both organisations would care to elaborate?

Dave C  

Slight confusion of agency terminology BSAC is Ocean Diver, Sport Diver, Dive Leader, Advanced diver then First Class Diver
PADI is Open water, Advanced OW, then Rescue diver,(not sure where MFA fits in) DiveMaster, and IIRC Master Scuba Diver
http://www.bsac.org/techserv/salt1.htm

But I agree with WL, instructor not the agency, plus influences from your regular "environment" ie buddies and their general attitudes/inputs. My view on the OW qual was based on seeing the Uni kids who've learnt in Thailand/Phillipines etc, often doing their (AOW too) then they join the Uni club and it's a total shock (quite literally folks), no ruck intended, Daz good point about the qual for that environment.
Right, enough of talking about diving, boss is on holiday, it's 3.30, it's POETS Day!
See yers!
Steve
PS Tim will ring you tonight either pre or post dive