The economy mentality...

[Mal Bridgeman]

I strayed into this topic in another thread and realised that I was taking it a little off topic. I've therefore set out my thoughts here and would rather the discussion happened here rather than on the other thread.

So the question for debate ..."Diver safety and enjoyment is being compromised by the economy mentality"

The case for the motion.....

New Divers need four things to reach the level of proficiency they need for safe enjoyable diving....Skills, Knowledge, Equipment and Experience. Without one part they cannot be complete as a diver.


Skills & Knowledge
The skills and knowledge come from their initial training but I fear this arena is flawed and not working in the best interests of the new diver or the diving industry in general. In a market where there appears to be an unlimited supply of instructors, where costs for pools, materials, school equipment etc are fixed then the only area for differentiation is the price charged for the course. This favours those who value their own worth the least.

A reputable dive school will charge a fair amount because it's their living and they will ensure their students are using high quality equipment and make available sufficient time for their instructors to be able to carry out remedial training and ensure a student is completely comfortable and competent with their skills, before moving onto the next lesson or stage of development. They will have experienced backup support at the pool and open water both in the water and on the surface with the correct safety equipment and emergency plans.

Unfortunately when differentiating on price it's much easier to not bother with lower instructor:student ratios, to tick off a student even if they have not properly mastered a skill so they can get to the next lesson, to stick rigidly to the prescribed schedule because their is insufficient money to cover extra pool sessions or open water sessions. It gets worse because there is a never ending supply of new instructors so if one pushes back about the operation he gets moved on and another instructor takes his place.

In the UK it's fairly obvious that the HSE have a strong influence on safety but if you can evade the notice of the HSE you can save more cost from your operation. Take a newly qualified safety diver who can't sort themselves out in the water let alone help anyone but it's ok because he won't charge for his services.

So initial training is differentiated on cost alone and with an uneducated market the system is flourishing. Students are given the impression it's easy to reach the higher levels of diving into the professional levels and much money is taken from them along the way until they reach the instructor level and rejoin the vicious circle.

It's no surprise to me that in excess of 70% of new instructors from one certifying agency never issue a cert card.

Equipment

As part of the initial training the student will be introduced all the life support equipment they need to be safe and enjoy their underwater time. They have the opportunity to ask questions and compare different set ups and can see the pros and cons of different equipment choices.....at least they can if they have knowledgable instructors who can listen to and understand their needs and recommend appropriate equipment for the type of diving intended. Where they work for the shop they will of course recommend the store's products, that's their job, but a good salesman will refuse to sell an inappropriate item and advise where they can be obtained. Building a rapport like this with students will ensure a lifelong trust relationship is built.

An alternative is to pay scant regard to kit and allow or encourage students to buy off the internet or hire kit. Once on the internet they see things but cannot discuss with anyone how appropriate the item is to their diving and end up buying things just because the items just happen to be popular without thinking throught how appropriate the kit is to the diving they want to do. The instructor has only just got his kit from eBay too so what advice can he give?

Experience

Finally they need experience. In a well run shop there will be a range of trips to quarries, the sea locally, Red Sea trips and far flung places too if you are lucky. When they have built some more experience the divers will return to the dive shop and seek the further education that was referred to in their initial training and extend their underwater adventure yet further.

Alternatively they will get their kit and go diving with some mates. They will pick more experienced mates because they feel they will be safer that way. Unfortunately the mates have no regard for their safety taking them deeper than they should have (because they looked like they were enjoying it) get a fright then put the whole lot back on eBay the next week. That's bad for us all.

Divers who go diving and have fun diving will stay diving which is good for all of us.



The case against ......

[Mark Davies]

A very interesting post Mal and sadly spot on. I can't make a 'case against' - except that hopefully there are still a few instructors out there who have pride and integrity in what they do - but the commercial pressures you describe will ensure they are in diminishing numbers.

There is much within UK diving structures (both PADI and BSAC) which is far from constructive and which systematically creates problems for old and new divers both. Unfortunately there is a lot of vested interest that perpetuates these issues. Certainly some room for change.

[Scuby]

Depends which parts you economise on.

Kit
Buying identical kit from a "cheap" internet supplier compared to the often-expensive LDS makes absolutely no difference. That one's easy.

Advice
The advice you get from the LDS *may* be good - or it may not. Ok they won't recommend anything totally inappropriate, but then in diving most stuff you can buy is appropriate to some degree. But yes, clearly if you have no idea what you're buying then buying online, without any guidance, isn't necessarily the best idea in the world. However, i've heard some of them give really bad advice too, and often the "best" reg is the one they sell, for obvious reasons. Some will mention "oh, and there's this other type we don't sell which is better", most won't. As a result, unless you know the LDS beforehand and its reputation, then I do not feel I could rely on their advice without having first researched it myself from a number of other sources. Does that make their advice worth paying for? Depends on the circumstances, for new divers it probably makes more sense than for an experienced diver. When I go shopping for dive kit I typically know EXACTLY what I want - i've done the research / advice already, and so just want the cheapest source for that particular item.

Training
For training, cost has very little to do with quality. I'm from a largely BSAC background, with some TDI training recently, but am broadly aware of what every training agency offers. The training I got from TDI / Mark Powell was certainly the best i've had in a long time - well worth the money. But equally, I have learnt a lot from others in my BSAC club, and not paid anything for it above what i'd be paying to dive anyway. I learnt to dive off boats as an inherent part of my development within the club - but I have absolutely no doubt that that is infinitely superior training than what i'd have got if I did a PADI Boat Diving speciality in Dosthill, as I once saw a class doing. Training is about so much more than money, but I certainly wouldn't do a cheap version of a course if I knew it was inferior to another more expensive version.

Experience
Your last point concerns me. Most people diving with friends will not get pushed beyond where they want to go, or where they're safe. If that's happened to you then that's unfortunate, but is certainly not the case for everyone. Equally, i've seen a friend diving with his local shop / instructor being pushed far more quickly than the majority of divers would consider safe - I certainly would never go to that shop / instructor.



Just thinking as i'm writing this, maybe the difference in club vs independent divers? I've always been in a club since I started, and so I got all the advice, training, etc I needed from within the club - from friends and instructors who I knew, who I trusted, and who I regularly dived with. I've never had any reason to rely on a shop for advice, consequently don't have any particularly strong relationships with any shops, and so don't feel the need to support them when it's not in my own interests. For those who trained with schools / shops, then they may not have the club to fall back on, and rely on their LDS far more. Are they the ones who pay more for kit because they value the advice more?

Interesting question though. I don't think economising in the right places is bad at all. Going the full way with the argument, because I spend less on kit than I might otherwise do, I can afford to dive more often, build up more experience, and that in the end has a far greater benefit to my own personal safety than anything I could possibly get from a shop.

The other thing highlighted, for me, is that again the advice and support from a shop really does depend on that shop. It is not the same for everyone. Many shops don't do servicing, so can't tweak your regs, and so are no benefit in that sense. Many can't do suit repairs, so can't do your overnight fixes. Some employ inexperienced staff who either cannot advise, or give bad advice. Some only do a certain type of diving, and can't advise outside of that field. Some only sell certain brands or training, and will always recommend that for everyone regardless of whether it's suitable. Some will price-match, others will just sell everything at full RRP, others discount selectively - again, not everyone is the same.

David

[Scubee]

I think a lot of it comes down to which particular LDS you pick. But i have a few comments...

Originally Posted by Scuby

Depends which parts you economise on.

Kit
Buying identical kit from a "cheap" internet supplier compared to the often-expensive LDS makes absolutely no difference. That one's easy.

Providing you know exactly what you wany. An inexperienced diver can take pot luck having gained some advice from somewhere. The internet, clubmates, or he can take the piss by getting advice from those who sell it for a living then getting it marginally cheaper off the internet. Then he goes back to the LDS to get his regs set up.

Originally Posted by scuby

Advice
The advice you get from the LDS *may* be good - or it may not. Ok they won't recommend anything totally inappropriate, but then in diving most stuff you can buy is appropriate to some degree.

True, but what may be appropriate for one scenario may not be appropriate for another. Does a new diver have a clear understnading of how his/her diving could progress? I very much doubt it.

Originally Posted by Scuby

When I go shopping for dive kit I typically know EXACTLY what I want - i've done the research / advice already, and so just want the cheapest source for that particular item.

Yes, so do I. However, i am not too proud to get more advice. A number of times I have made my decision as to what i want, and *know* it is exactlywhat I need. It can just then take a ' have you thought about.......' to realise that actually, my choice was not perfect.

Originally Posted by Scuby

Training
For training, cost has very little to do with quality.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Scuby

. Training is about so much more than money, but I certainly wouldn't do a cheap version of a course if I knew it was inferior to another more expensive version.

The trouble is, new divers don't have any idea what is inferior or better training, and therefore go on a combination of cost and convenience.

Originally Posted by scuby

Experience
Your last point concerns me. Most people diving with friends will not get pushed beyond where they want to go,

Some, maybe, but not most. It is a case of knowing limits. I always believed my limits were 30-40m no-deco dives. I trusted my buddy enough to let him push my limits to where they are now. I didn't want to, and was incredibly nervous about it but it is a bit like going on a roller coaster. Something tells you it will be awful, something tells you you will have the time of your life. Experienced and good instructors will be able to identify someones limits and take them to new ones safely.

Originally Posted by scuby

If that's happened to you then that's unfortunate, but is certainly not the case for everyone. Equally, i've seen a friend diving with his local shop / instructor being pushed far more quickly than the majority of divers would consider safe - I certainly would never go to that shop / instructor.

Sometimes it isn't a case of being pushed into something before they are ready, but trying to slow them down. There are a lot of people who have a belief they are invincible.

Originally Posted by Scuby

For those who trained with schools / shops, then they may not have the club to fall back on, and rely on their LDS far more. Are they the ones who pay more for kit because they value the advice more?

There are others who learn through the school, but also have support of a club. Is that the best of both worlds? Bear in mind that staff who work in shops are often visited by reps from various companies, get up to date information and often understand the pitfalls better than the reps.

Originally Posted by Scuby

I don't think economising in the right places is bad at all.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Scuby

Going the full way with the argument, because I spend less on kit than I might otherwise do, I can afford to dive more often, build up more experience, and that in the end has a far greater benefit to my own personal safety than anything I could possibly get from a shop.

I disagree. It is a combination of knowledge and experience that improves divers safety. I know how to dive to 45m. I knwo and understand kit configurations, and I think I knew a lot of it before I actually did it. But knowing the theory made it a hell of a lot safer when I went there!

Originally Posted by Scuby

The other thing highlighted, for me, is that again the advice and support from a shop really does depend on that shop.

Very true.

I guess i am lucky with my LDS!

[Steve S]

Intersesting post Mal, I agree with most of it with the caveat that sometimes the most expensive is not always a guarantee of quality.

Case in point a student may feel because dive shop A charges £? they are fine and because dive shop B charges less the training will be inferior. Also overheads in certain parts of the Country will be more than in others so that factors into it eg: business rates rent etc.

I had early experience of a school [BSAC] and had no problem in spite of the fact it was in the mid price range of quotes I recieved. What swayed me to them was glowing recommendations from others and the rest of my training has been done through my club [ membership monies only] except for the tech stuff.

Safe diving,
Steve

[Mal Bridgeman]

Scuby ... I think we are coming from the same place. The club environment is very different to what I am talking about.

Part of the point I am making is that the shops don't have as many knowledgable advisors in them because the ones in the knowledge can;t afford to work there. It really is a catch 22 and I think the UK dive industry at least is probably not recoverable without some form of external intervention.

Rgrds
Mal

[gerbil]

There are some interesting points made here. Can i add a 'learner divers perspective'.

When your talking entry level training i think its always going to be a lottery to a degree. When Joe/Joanne blogs having seen the attention that Monty Halls bloke gets from women decides he/she wants to do it he/she have no points of reference. Unless their intelligent and trawl around the net and find friends who can make suggestions.

Finding the right training after that should (in the case of intelligent divers) be based on being introduced to others who dive and using their knowledge and experience to at the very least find out where to find out info. In the case of less intelligent divers they are always going to risk the lottery approach. Some where in between these points is the 'true' experience of all of us.

I'm guessing this is why i view diving with a club (informal or formal and regardless of beards etc) as better than being too independent. There is a lot to be said for watching others make mistakes.

Similar with equipment. I currently am faced with the stress of buying my first lot of equipment. I fear wasting money on pointless toys but also dread spending x sheckles on something now only to have to upgrade 6 months in. I do think that there should be courses just in how to buy equipment. I know its included at a basic level on most schools but its not the central focus - getting into the water and the essentials of the kit to keep you alive are the main points.

The decision as to where to buy equipment from for most is a no brainer. The internet is going to wipe out retail as we know it (i'm not saying its right or wrong just that it will). My most local dive shop is too small to compete with those prices (i'm lucky though that diverswearhouse are on my way to work and robin hoods are are 20 mins away). But if we all shop on the net our local shops will not survive, but then if we all shop at supermarkets the local shop will go out business.....

The risk you outline Mal is genuine, especially as recreational diving is so accessible now and at the end of the day dive shops are there to make money. Surely the only sensible mitigation you can have in this scenario is the solution i came up with. Buy the products you need from the shops but engage with diving as a social thing. At the baby diver stage i am at the simple rule that i hope to follow is that when diving, or around divers, keep my mouth shut and my ears open. For example this forum is a great source of info. I may not always understand everything but 6 months down the line when i'm talking to some techie dude something will click.

I guess what i'm wibbling on about is that people need to be encuraged to take part in the social aspect of diving, encoraged to join a club or forums like this. This is the only way to get the information into the imperfect market in the hope of making it better. I have learnt a fair bit just by lurking on this site even though i dont yet have the experience to talk indepth about dives etc.

The point is the best leassons and books about diving exists in the converstaions that divers have amongst themsleves and there constently being rewritten.

EDIT: Good grief i need to learn to write English not dive

[David Pye]

If you fast-forward the economy mentality suggestion to include doing diving you don't have the kit for (because you can't afford it), then I'd agree with you entirely.

Now I have twins, I do the dives I used to do on a single 12. Nowadays, I wouldn't feel comfortable on a single 12 for those dives, and I didnt at the time either, but I didn't have the money to buy a twinset back then.

[And]

Hi

Sorry, I think you are wrong. (Well actually, I agree to a point, but with some caveats)I don't recall anyone coming to YD and asking for the cheapest place to learn to dive. Pre purchase research just isn't considered with regard to scuba.

Learning to dive will either be an impulse purchase whilst on holiday (and then the price is quantified against other similar activities such as windsurfing, jetskiing etc) or someone decides to book a holiday and then starts looking for scuba clubs in the UK. The other situation is a 'friend introducing a friend' which is largely peer driven anyway.

In our club particularly we get the latter, unless it is a 'friend of a friend', and then they know the costs anyway. I have never had a conversation about money when someone joins up, it really isn't on the radar, or the cost is just seen as very reasonable (which it is in a BSAC club anyway)

My other point is, just how much training do you need to swim on a nice reef following a dive guide? It is incredibly safe, and the vast majority (99.999%) of scuba divers are fine, even those with what some might say is poor training (thinking of the rep of russion and italian diving here).

More advanced diving seems a different kettle of fish though and there is evidence of commoditising (sp.?) the various qualifications and training courses, and that I think, is because the training agencies are expanding quickly, and the instructors are all trying to earn a living.

There are just not that many divers who are interested in going past PADI advanced/BSAC Sports diver and there is an oversupply in the market. In my club we have 50 members and only 1 (me) dives beyond a sports diver level (others have higher certs but club trips are 30 mtrs or less) so that would suggest a 2% 'conversion of 'active' divers, not just holiday divers. Even GUE has now 3 UK DIRF instructors with another 2 work in progress. When all 5 convert then that would require around 300 students a year to provide just 2 courses a month for each instructor, and a (very) modest salary, and the evidence doesn't suggest that the students are there. It is the suppliers who are dropping the prices to get the students who aren't there, in my view, and this is because it is too easy to become an instructor, even a GUE one.

Andy

[Scubee]

Maybe some people don't need much training to swim along a reef with a dive guide. What they need training for is so that they can deal with things which can, and do, go wrong.

Of course people don't come onto YD asking for the cheapest place to learn. I would suggest that the vast majority of people don't even hear about YD until they are diving, at which point, cost is irrelevant.

The school i teach for has, in the 5 years I have been involved, had a virtual complete instructor turnover. I can think of 2 instructors who were there when i learned and are still there now ( can think of 10 who have not taught with us in the last year or so). While people continue to stop using their teaching skills for whatever reason (most of them seem to have just lost enthusiasm, and think it isn't worth the hassle for the money they get) and people continue to be attracted, even though the pay is low, there won't be saturation.

I agree, it is too easy to become an instructor. That is why you get instructors who are very good, to those who can do the job to standards but that's about it. Those are the ones who worry me. They seem to be the ones who would be prepared to work for nothing just to get work.

Now, i don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, and I am sure there are probably some good instructors who work for othing. tat may suit you, but think about what it does to the market for the rest of us.