Less redundancy in warm water dives?

[BJ]

Pooofff! What do 'zees crazeee French frogmen know about diving? They are so mean 'zay don't even breathe that much. Their lungs are all choked up wiz' smoke from 'zeir Chitanes and their brains are fuddled with Pastis. If it 'ad been left to 'zee French, scuba would never 'ave been invented!
'Zay float about like fishes. Don't 'zay know how to walk about zee bottom like a good British silt-stirrer?
Not only 'zat, 'zay 'ave infected 'zee 'ole diving world wiz' 'zeir crazee ideas. Millions of dives are made on single tanks wz'out a pony in sight. Crazee!

[chrisch]

I think the problem is not one of water temp but training. For example most US agencies now think air diving must stop at 40m. Old school Europeans still think that you can carry on past this point. BSAC still has a 50m limit and the French agency 60m.

People therefore think that 50m or so is a "normal" dive so they use "normal" kit. In the Uk this often includes a 3L pony tank. However, common sense tells you this is a fairly useless item at 55m or so. it would probably run out at 20m or so leaving the rest of the journey up as an emergency ascent with missed stops.

45m+ is IMHO twinset and trimix territory with the proper training.

But I think everyone is right - macho bullshit is the order of the day. I bet a lot of these divers are back up on the boat having a smoke after the dive and sounding off about how good they are.

Fortunately modern kit rarely goes wrong......

Chris

[Richard Mason]

Originally Posted by JasonP

True. The only difference is that in clear water, navigation isn't so much of an issue. Finding your way back to the line on a wreck dive when you've got 30m of viz isn't much of a challenge, so you can use techniques such as having a spare tank at the end of the shot, or at 6m, which aren't so much of an option in the UK because of our viz and tidal streams.

Jason

Not everybody in the rest of the world is square profile diving a wreck either don't forget.

Our diving is mainly "fishes & scenery", wrecks account for less than 10%. We rarely use a shot and even then, generally only use it as a point of reference for the boat cover to drop the divers on a reef out in the wupwup and to know roughly (say within 100m) where the divers/DSMB are going to pop up.

Half the sites we dive, we've no idea what we are going to find and where we are going to finish up on our explorations. The shot in our case just helps the boat crew stay on station.

[David D]

Originally Posted by chrisch

45m+ is IMHO twinset and trimix territory with the proper training.

As you say, your opinion.

Originally Posted by chrisch

But I think everyone is right - macho bullshit is the order of the day. I bet a lot of these divers are back up on the boat having a smoke after the dive and sounding off about how good they are.

As someone who has no problem diving to 65m in warm blue water with a single cylinder I have to reply to this.

As I said in an earlier reply there's gas available for the dive, where's the issue. There always seems to be someone ready to accuse another diver of 'macho bullshit'. I have never accused anyone happy to bimble about at 20m of 'pansy bullshit'.

To each their own.

[JasonP]

Originally Posted by Richard Mason

Not everybody in the rest of the world is square profile diving a wreck either don't forget.

But if you're not doing a square profile, you're less likely to go into deco too. There's a big difference in my opinion between doing a 40m wall dive and a 40m square profile dive.

On the wall dive, you're only going to be at your max depth at the beginning, so if there is a problem, your buddy is going to have enough gas to get you both out of trouble. Plus it is of course a lot easier and less stressful to ascend in clear water.

So you guys use DSMBs regularly down in Tazzie? Just about everyone I've dived with in NSW has always anchored the boat and expected you to come back to the anchor line.

Jason

[Houseplant]

Originally Posted by ardhill

Is it common to do these sort of dives in warm water with no redundancy?.

To answer the original question, yes. A little while ago, there was a thread about the Zenobia (Cyprus) and what people get up to on her with single cylinders. 40m dives and deep wreck penetration (albeit in large spaces) go on every single day.

It happens, whether it is sensible or not is another matter. I wouldn't call anyone stupid for the diving they do if they know (and accept) the risks they are taking for a particular dive with a particular set of equipement.

[Finless]

Just playing devil's advocate here ................ and I have done a single 12ltr cylinder dive to 59 mtrs off Tenerife.

Just because we are brought up using twin sets or pony cylinders doesn't make our way of diving the only way or the right way - it is just a safer way and more bulky way.

The clear water is a definite aid as I could see the boat on the surface so I could have aimed my soon to be lifeless body in the direction of the boat to ensure easy pick up. I could see every diver far beyond the distance I could swim and hold my breath.

I'm not knocking safety in diving or saying it should be ignored but once you start down the road it is easy to get carried away with being over cautious and anally retentive about safety and redundancy. UK conditions can be FAR FAR worse and although you are still only in the sea the visibility makes a big difference.

Dive kit doesn't fail that often. It is possible to accept as a pre dive decision that if we have to buddy breath from max depth we will be a bit bent - although - the crew I was with had a drop cylinder and I could see the boat from the bottom.

Diving is not rocket science and there is a danger that people over complicate it unecessarily (excluding proper technical divers and rebreathers).

A bit of risk in life is completely acceptable, IMO, and in good conditions that kind of dive is completely acceptable. Another fact that is usually ignored is that these people have worked down to these depths and know they can do the dive.

Of course, there are the exceptions - doing the Blue Hole on a single!

Oh, and to further implicate myself - on my dive it was the second dive of the day (first was only to 30 mtrs) and I only had 180 or 190 bar in the cylinder to begin with. Nededless to say I only spent moments at the max depth and swam back in an "ascending steps" profile. This meant I was f*cked if I had a problem as everyone else stayed on the bottom and came up the shot line .......... they were bigger, fitter and faster finners than me.

Was it dangerous .......... no ............. well, yes, if something went wrong - but you can drown in 6 inches of water.

Did I enjoy it - WOW, what a buzz being on the bottom looking up! Would I do it again? You bet, but only if I was dived up.

[Houseplant]

Finless, I would agree with every word of that. Have some green

[BJ]

It reminds me of a time in the early 'nineties when we decided to do an exploratory dive to 60m at Isla Dragonera in Mallorca. Equipped with twinsets and extra sling tanks (of air) we descended, during which time we passed a solo diver at 40m. The difference was that he was spear-fishing and doing it on a breath-hold. (Bloody Spaniard - and he only had one good leg!). His name was Jose Amengual.

[lloydwatkin]

Originally Posted by Richie

At NDAC a month or so ago - hardly warm shiney water - we were at 50 -52 and there was a group of divers all with singles and ponies a good 5M below us.
Redundancy in bulk?........ or the herd instinct?

You have to do something to make the NDAC interesting, and besides that's the old area with god viz