Drysuits somebody!!!!

[CALLISTO]

All, After being at Capernwray today to get some fresh Air !!! There was the usual mix of Students and instructors training..

It never ceases to amaze me that I see Students in Semi dry suits every winter in 6deg water temp .....and the instructor in a drysuit

Question is ... if there was an serious incident ...would the instuctor be negligent ie "his/her duty of care"...Discuss

Andy

[steveharriss]

Last year I saw an instructor briefing his students in the cafe. One guy, in particular, was shaking so much it looked like he was about to collapse. I asked if he was ok and the instructor turned and told me not to interrupt his briefing.

I was astounded that he intended to take the group back in the water. Needless to say he looked toasty warm in a top of the range Otter drysuit...the students were all in wetsuits. Amazing.

I'd have happily dropped him in the mire in any incident investigation.

[Lazlo]

A few points to consider:

1) The instructor might be doing up to twice as many dives as the students.

2) A full semi-dry is not necessarily any colder than wearing a drysuit - especially when you consider that the ones hired to students often don't fit them very well.

3) Of lesser importance, but still worth bearing in mind, is the high cost of maintaining drysuits compared to wetsuits. Broken zips, split seals, leaks etc.

4) Task loading is always an issue. Wearing a drysuit can be a lot to add what with the other "distractions". Some might say that in that case, the students should be prepared better, but again consider that a) more training means more cost passed on to the student, and b) ...

5) Many of the students might never have had any intention of diving in cold water anyway. Why waste time (and their money) teaching them something they'll never use.

Having said all that, of course students should never go into the water in an unacceptably cold state - a little chilly is to be expected in 6 degrees .

In an ideal world, OW-style courses would cost £500-£1000 and take months, but then dive shops would go out of business ...

[Darren A]

A bit of a blast from the past, but there were opinions voiced on this here (maybe not so much the legal side) - might be of interest to some who haven't seen the thread before

Is it safe to put trainee dives into cold water in wetsuits?

[Dungannon-diver]

I have both semi dry and dry suit (prefer the semi dry)

i dived in a semi dry while the instructor dived in the dry suit and i was warmer than him on several ocassions.

Also when i was along with the instructor and i had dry suit (my own) and he was teaching another student, while i settled on the bottom observing the other student i started to feel cold so can sorta understand the instructors in dry suit to keep warm while the student is continually moving doing skills while they are stationary.

Above posting gives good examples.

Safe diving
Gaz

[Scubee]

One March, i did 3 open water qualifying weekends at Wraysbury. The students (as well as the staff) were in drysuits. On the first two weekends, all the students, at some point during the two days, whinged about the cold. (I think the water was about 4/5 degrees).

On the third weekend, i had a couple of comments about chilliness on Saturday. On Sunday morning, as my DM was zipping me up, he cracked a couple of teeth on my zip. Hey Ho i thought... it is neoprene, I'll be fine stick gaffa tape over it. The group of 5 (in two lots) managed to complete dive three, with me only having to do 9 ascents. The ascents were the easy bit. Each time I descended, the bloody zip sucked in another bit of cold water.

By the end of the first two dives, i was a tad on the chilly side, I couldn't get out of my suit in case the zip wouldn't do up at all afterwards (yes... I did... I had no choice!). Tea, soup and a generous supply of hats, coats and gloves during a surface intrval long enough to stve off hypothermia, and I managed to finish the dives. Thank goodness for having some excellent divemaster support that weekend, as well as the instructor who helped me out on the final dive.

Funnily enough, not one of the students commented on how cold they were!

[CALLISTO]

I have tried not to pass judgement ....However given modern society and especially HSE ...where theres blame there is a claim culture ..etc...I found it hard to believe that instructors/school would leave themselves so wide open if anything went wrong ..Risk assesssments etc etc


Plus for instance ...The instructor did 4/5 dives and was cold in a drysuit blah ,blah would hold no water at an inquest if things got that bad ....I will read the past threads



Andy

[yazzyfooty]

Originally Posted by Lazlo

A few points to consider:

1) The instructor might be doing up to twice as many dives as the students.

2) A full semi-dry is not necessarily any colder than wearing a drysuit - especially when you consider that the ones hired to students often don't fit them very well.

3) Of lesser importance, but still worth bearing in mind, is the high cost of maintaining drysuits compared to wetsuits. Broken zips, split seals, leaks etc.

4) Task loading is always an issue. Wearing a drysuit can be a lot to add what with the other "distractions". Some might say that in that case, the students should be prepared better, but again consider that a) more training means more cost passed on to the student, and b) ...

5) Many of the students might never have had any intention of diving in cold water anyway. Why waste time (and their money) teaching them something they'll never use.

Having said all that, of course students should never go into the water in an unacceptably cold state - a little chilly is to be expected in 6 degrees .

In an ideal world, OW-style courses would cost £500-£1000 and take months, but then dive shops would go out of business ...

Dont forget if students train to dive in a dry suit then think of the lost revenue from a Dry Suit Course for the dive centres and instructors!

[MJH]

Originally Posted by CALLISTO

Plus for instance ...The instructor did 4/5 dives and was cold in a drysuit blah ,blah would hold no water at an inquest if things got that bad

The 2007 Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act introduces a new offence, across the UK, for prosecuting companies and other organisations where there has been a gross failing, throughout the organisation, in the management of health and safety with fatal consequences.

It is my understanding that this means that Dive Schools are liable for the actions of their staff both paid or unpaid

[Scubee]

Originally Posted by MJH

The 2007 Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act introduces a new offence, across the UK, for prosecuting companies and other organisations where there has been a gross failing, throughout the organisation, in the management of health and safety with fatal consequences.

It is my understanding that this means that Dive Schools are liable for the actions of their staff both paid or unpaid

Wouldn't that depend on whether the instructor was a contractor (i.e. self employed) or employed?
If the instructor was employed, then there is vicarious liability, but I don't know if that translates into contractor situations.

mind you... if the dive school chooses to train in wet suits, the instructor has the choice - do it the way the DC says, or don't do it at all - there are plenty of others who will be daft enough!