Why the reluctance to call for help?

[thehuntsman81]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Did the others do what id do and keep very very quiert about it?

Talk about forcing divers to hide symptoms

ATB

Mark

If you have symptoms to hide in the first place then you already have a problem.... and you won't find a solution by saying there is no problem?

If you do hide your symptons until it is to late then what could have been a managable situation is now a potential disaster. I for one would only want to see a helicopter above me if it was the last possible solution to my problem. Helicopter rescues are inherantly dangerous at sea and put the vessel and all on board at risk. I would much prefer to take medical advice from shore, manage the situation on board and if it is required motor to the nearest port where I can meet a waiting ambulance. Your unwillingness to accept there is a problem early doors has now taken this decision from me and has essentially put the lives of everybody on board at risk.

I completely agree that this attitude taken by certain dive boats is poor and only forces divers to hide their problems until it is to late.... but this is a no brainer.... If you don't like the way a dive boat skipper solves his problems then find a new dive boat!

[MattS]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Did the others do what id do and keep very very quiert about it?

There haven't been any others for many years Mark. There was a bit of gung ho diving and DCI denial about when I started but things have moved on. The vast majority of the dives I have been on people completed their dives according to their plan.

In a very small number of cases there have been major problems leading to divers completely blowing at least all their shallow stops. In those cases it is bloody obvious something has gone wrong. The skipper and everyone else trained to goes into rescue mode and CG ends up being called as a matter of routine - like calling the fire brigade when the house is in flames. DCI is the least of the worries.

[edit]Sorry forgot about these the first time. There has been a PFO on a shore dive at Chesil. We worked that out cos the guy couldn't walk straight but it came on a couple hours after he was out. There have been a couple un-earnts, again the neurological symptoms become noticable and I have not had a problem pointing out the odd behaviour to the casualties.

One guy was picked up by ambulance and the treatment he recieved leaves me very wary of ambulances, A&E departments and divers with suspected DCI but that's another story.

Talk about forcing divers to hide symptoms

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree with you. You want to the skipper not to be involved in diving operations, so where would you draw the line?

More often, I see divers at the bottom of the experience ladder, panicking after missing a safety stop or losing buoyancy control on a 10m to 20m dive. They have complained of symptoms which are in the DCI set, but could be many other things and in the circumstances are most likely related to shock. The dissapointing bit (for me) is the instructor or buddy running around highly agitated demanding instant O2 administration - the drama does not help. Personally my approach is to speak very calmly and matter of fact, do a neuro and general assessment, check some tables, get them wrapped up and make sure they drink something. Then ask them if they still want O2 and CG alerting. I understand at least two of those skippers I was referring to do the same thing. The other is still a bit new.

Of course I am very much the mortal diver. I enjoy the 30m to 50m range most of all and still manage quite a few dives < 30m in a year.

[Andy the Coastie]

Originally Posted by john1959

Im a Coast rescue officer based in Northumberland and an avid sports diver. We preach that in any circumstances of any pending or iminent danger/problems that could/will lead to an emergency or life threatening situation to contact the Coast guard immedietly. Many lives have been lost or persons gaining injury for the sake of a quick call for a heads up. The MRCCs wont take offence if the situation proves to be a false call they are looked upon with good intent if all turns out ok. Better being safe than sorry

And having said that,,,,,,,, I normally, use them details for search planning or carry it on for ON WATCH EXERCISES on quiet nights

[AM1]

Originally Posted by chrisch

Tell us then, in your professional opinion, as a coastguard, which decompression model we should be using and at what point does a deviation from the plan become a "reportable incident" for want of a better term. (I accept you are happy to record such routine traffic and take no action on it - that is a given)

Chris

There is no "one size fits all" model for decompression as everyone has a different physiological profile. Furthermore, you are asking the coastguard to stick himself in the firing line and assume liability by suggesting a model that can and will go wrong for the most physiologically sound diver, that's inherently the nature of the beast.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

What you think I jump up and get involved with a perfict stranger?

I wouldent even get involved when Mark got bent. I left it to his buddies to make the call. None of my buisness.

The people ill assist want it this way and every one on the boat knows that.

So f#ck um sue and be dammed.

ATB

Mark

I didn't know so many ostriches could fit on one boat.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

No if thats not your bag its not a problem. If i dive with you I will follow your instructions and call it in for any infraction of the planned dive no matter how small. If you tell me your fine ill inform the diving doc your in denial and therefore showing signs of a neural bend and ill insist they get you to a pot just in case

On deep expeditions, I already line the Coastguard and local chamber up in advance and if I, or indeed any of the team miss decompression stops in our individual plans (for whatever reason) then the notification call is made, no question. Me personally - I do not intend to fuck about with my health for the sake of pride, if I were to miss stops on a deep gas dive, trust me, you won't need to be making a call for advice on my behalf, consider it already done the second I'm on the boat. I'm not too proud to ask for help if and when I fuck up. If you breathe compressed gas under pressure, some day you will get bent.

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I
If the skipper insists on calling in a helicopter because I want to suck 02 I will get very very annoyed.

Have you ever heard of the surface decompression stop? On a deep expedition where you may be doing a series of deep dives, it is good practice to breathe oxygen on the surface anyway. Even on open circuit, after a deep dive, I used to breathe oxygen while driving home. This is nothing new. So why not tell the skipper on deep dives you will always breathe oxygen for a while after your dive. Hey....if it's good enough for WKPP....

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Did the others do what id do and keep very very quiert about it?

Talk about forcing divers to hide symptoms

Nobody forced you do anything. You elected to hide the symptoms because of the inconvenience/embarrassment at going onto O2 and a possible pot ride. The only person that is losing is you Mark by storing up untreated niggling DCI damage for the future. If you feel that you need to go onto O2 (for whatever reason) then get it on the table and leave your pride behind. You are only doing yourself a massive disservice by suffering in silence. Who gives a shit if you miss some decompression? Would you feel better about it if you could say it was an undeserved DCI and you followed your plan perfectly? DCI is a function of this sport. Shit happens. So what if a few internet warriors make judgments from their cosy armchairs? Is that more important than safeguarding your health for you and family's future? We should not be cultivating a culture of shame about DCI, it is a function of the sport and can happen with a perfectly well followed plan. You know yourself in mixed gas diving that the DCI odds increase exponentially with deeper dives, even with perfectly followed profiles!! I call this "rolling the deco dice" for a very good reason!

You need to sharpen up your diving practices and get some proper logistics and procedures in place - don't get on a boat without this, it may just save your or someone else's ass. It is EVERY diver's responsibility to plan and execute a professional and pre-defined strategy to manage the risk that is present on every dive trip. As for standing back when you know perfectly well that you should make a phone call - well - I am really disappointed in you, I thought you were better than that. You wouldn't walk past someone in a road traffic accident and ignore it would you?

[Mark Chase]

[quote]

Originally Posted by MattS

I can see where you are coming from but I disagree with you. You want to the skipper not to be involved in diving operations, so where would you draw the line?

What line? He drives us there shots the wreck puts us in picks us up and drives us home. I rely on the skipper to judge sea conditions for safety I rely on the skipper for a safe pick up and I rely on the skipper for defending the divers in the water. I also hope if I go missing the skipper knows enough about local conditions/ tides currents etc to come and find me.

Its a highly responsable job and demands my full respect.

I have zero interest in the skippers opinion on wether or not missing 15mins of deco on my 20/80 profile because i was too cold, should result in the CG being contacted.

More often, I see divers at the bottom of the experience ladder, panicking after missing a safety stop or losing buoyancy control on a 10m to 20m dive. They have complained of symptoms which are in the DCI set, but could be many other things and in the circumstances are most likely related to shock. The dissapointing bit (for me) is the instructor or buddy running around highly agitated demanding instant O2 administration - the drama does not help. Personally my approach is to speak very calmly and matter of fact, do a neuro and general assessment, check some tables, get them wrapped up and make sure they drink something. Then ask them if they still want O2 and CG alerting. I understand at least two of those skippers I was referring to do the same thing. The other is still a bit new.

errrrrr isnt this EXACTLY what i have been saying all along and getting slaged off for. The experianced DO/buddy makes the call on wether or not to contact the CG.


ATB

Mark

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Soooooo what table dictates the manditory stops for 45mins at 65m on a 1.3 set point running 16/45?

You tell me. Before the dive.

Janos

[dublinbay]

[quote=Mark Chase;896869]

I have zero interest in the skippers opinion on wether or not missing 15mins of deco on my 20/80 profile because i was too cold, should result in the CG being contacted. [snip]

errrrrr isnt this EXACTLY what i have been saying all along and getting slaged off for. The experianced DO/buddy makes the call on wether or not to contact the CG.


ATB

Mark

So skippers dont have your permission to call CG. But your buddy can. So your buddy over rules the skipper in your world? Fair enough. At least everyone knows where they stand with you.

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by AM1

Have you ever heard of the surface decompression stop? On a deep expedition where you may be doing a series of deep dives, it is good practice to breathe oxygen on the surface anyway. Even on open circuit, after a deep dive, I used to breathe oxygen while driving home. This is nothing new. So why not tell the skipper on deep dives you will always breathe oxygen for a while after your dive. Hey....if it's good enough for WKPP....

Yes i know the fiddles but i am trying not to duck the real issue.

Nobody forced you do anything. You elected to hide the symptoms because of the inconvenience/embarrassment at going onto O2 and a possible pot ride. The only person that is losing is you Mark by storing up untreated niggling DCI damage for the future. If you feel that you need to go onto O2 (for whatever reason) then get it on the table and leave your pride behind. You are only doing yourself a massive disservice by suffering in silence. Who gives a shit if you miss some decompression? Would you feel better about it if you could say it was an undeserved DCI and you followed your plan perfectly? DCI is a function of this sport. Shit happens. So what if a few internet warriors make judgments from their cosy armchairs? Is that more important than safeguarding your health for you and family's future? We should not be cultivating a culture of shame about DCI, it is a function of the sport and can happen with a perfectly well followed plan. You know yourself in mixed gas diving that the DCI odds increase exponentially with deeper dives, even with perfectly followed profiles!! I call this "rolling the deco dice" for a very good reason!

This is just irelevant waffle as it has no relationship to the realiaty.


Please dont use words like pride and embaresmnet because they are so far from the truth as to be damed iritating.

Inconveniance christ how many times do i have to say it. This is why id rather make sure its a bend.

You need to sharpen up your diving practices and get some proper logistics and procedures in place - don't get on a boat without this, it may just save your or someone else's ass. It is EVERY diver's responsibility to plan and execute a professional and pre-defined strategy to manage the risk that is present on every dive trip. As for standing back when you know perfectly well that you should make a phone call - well - I am really disappointed in you, I thought you were better than that. You wouldn't walk past someone in a road traffic accident and ignore it would you?

Yes I am amazed i have survived so long


Sorry I will continue not to interfere with divers who are not in my team. I often believe their equipment is wrong their dive plan is wrong and their deco is wrong but i keep my comments for the forum not on the boat.


ATB

Mark

[Andy the Coastie]

[quote=Mark Chase;896869]

What line? He drives us there shots the wreck puts us in picks us up and drives us home. I rely on the skipper to judge sea conditions for safety I rely on the skipper for a safe pick up and I rely on the skipper for defending the divers in the water. I also hope if I go missing the skipper knows enough about local conditions/ tides currents etc to come and find me.

Its a highly responsable job and demands my full respect.

I have zero interest in the skippers opinion on wether or not missing 15mins of deco on my 20/80 profile because i was too cold, should result in the CG being contacted.





errrrrr isnt this EXACTLY what i have been saying all along and getting slaged off for. The experianced DO/buddy makes the call on wether or not to contact the CG.


ATB

Mark

And my highlighted / bold text ,,,,,,, now let me tell you ....

Having read that the skipper is only a TAXI DRIVER,getting the divers to a site, shotting it , picking you up & getting you home.

WELL, when the vessel is taking you to the dive site it is in fact a PASSENGER CARRYING VESSEL to which ever catagory coding ,,,, once the passengers ie divers leave the boat for a dive and the boat is used to keep watch of you & your safety it then become under code a WORKBOAT , which not only brings in other rules / manning levels etc etc etc ,,,,, but the skipper can charge VAT ,,,, if he is regestered .....

[Janos]

Originally Posted by Andy the Coastie

and the boat is used to keep watch of you & your safety it then become under code a WORKBOAT , which not only brings in other rules / manning levels etc etc etc ,,,,, but the skipper can charge VAT ,,,, if he is regestered .....

Andy.,

When you ran a charter business were you a Workboat and did you pay VAT?

Janos