Why the reluctance to call for help?

[Arfie]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

I hate it when nosy skippers threaten to phone it in just because i am being cautious.


ATB

Mark

That's fine Mark and you are a very experienced diver and you have the right to make that choice about yourself. What I am getting at is if YOU are being cautious and we have already ascertained that the skipper is liable, why you feel that you shouldn't allow them the caution of making a call to the CG?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but you seem to refer to a call to the CG as meaning a helicopter WILL come and you WILL end up in the pot. I was under the impression that they will discuss it and advise and only get the heli out if they feel it's needed?

All that aside as it refers to you being the casualty, is your only reluctance to call an incident in regarding another diver down the the inconvenince of them having to make their way back to pick up their car and kit? I personally would rather you worried about my health, my car and kit are both insured and replaceable.

The questions in Janos's poll were 'are they an incident or not?'

The first poll was who should decide whether to call and despite being told by skippers that they have a legal responsibility, Mark is making the point that they shouldn't decide, he should whether as a casualty or the most experienced diver on board, but there is no comeback on him if he gets it wrong, there is possibly comeback for the skipper.

And the other point about the second poll was that Mark would be worried by some of them, but still wouldn't call the CG! Why? Almost to a man/woman everyone else would call it in if there was a doubt, even just to let the CG be ready in case the situation worsened. I presume Mark would rather wait until the situation does worsen before calling it in?

I'm just trying to show that his approach does not help the skipper as he seems to believe it will and if he is making medical decisions for other people that he is actually putting himself at risk of being sued.

Making a call to the CG passes all liability to someone else, it covers the divers on the boat and the skippers arse. Why the hell would anyone else want to take on the liability for the sake of a phone/radio call?

Arfie

[sas steve]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

Because I don't know that its just a strain so I suck o2 for 30mins the pain goes away I stop sucking 02 the pain comes back, I call the chopper.

I have sucked 02 many many times.

I have yet to call the chopper.

I have had three sesions in a hyperbaric chamber. Two for carbon monoxide poisening and one for a suspected bend that wasn't. I went in with a pain they blew me down and it still hurt. = physical injury not DCI.

I am 44 and I ache a lot after most dives

I like to be able to have time on 02 to analise the problem and ensure i am not bent. I hate it when nosy skippers threaten to phone it in just because i am being cautious.


ATB

Mark

If only it was that easy to diagnose a bend we would avoid a lot of call outs.
Breathing O2 and waiting to see what happens just delays a proper diagnosis by a qualified Hyperbaric Doc and experienced Hyperbaric team.
that delay can result in permanent injury and makes our job that much harder.

Having time to self analyse allows you to make your own descisions which can be clouded by the seriousness of a real bend. Denial is a major factor in many cases we treat. By having correct and rapid diagnoses no-one loses out and everyone is happy. The skipper has met their duty of care, The CG have done their job, the diving Doc has made a diagnoses and if required we get to see the positive results.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Arfie

That's fine Mark and you are a very experienced diver and you have the right to make that choice about yourself. What I am getting at is if YOU are being cautious and we have already ascertained that the skipper is liable, why you feel that you shouldn't allow them the caution of making a call to the CG?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but you seem to refer to a call to the CG as meaning a helicopter WILL come and you WILL end up in the pot. I was under the impression that they will discuss it and advise and only get the heli out if they feel it's needed?

.....

If you read the many posts on here about this subject you will get many views and observations. Mark has the right to make his own mind up, except he doesn't because he's in denial and so must be ignored. The skipper is not liable unless s/he has done something to make them liable. Deliberately ignoring what they know to be DCI might be an example except that there is nothing in the RYA Day Skipper/Yachtmaster course about DCI so what do they actually know and how come they know it?

Some people have said the chopper will arrive no matter what. Some say it will not. The diving doctor should have a say, but ultimately the coastguard make the decision, again based on what medical knowledge?

In the final analysis everyone is running scared. Scared of being seen as a crap diver, scared of being sued, scared of ending up in Belgium without passport or a credit card (get evacuated from mid channel and it is a real possibility)

Thank god DCI is so rare.

Chris

[Secondopsman]

First off your kits on the boat and your cars in the car park. Then they chopper you off from 10miles off Brighton and You HOPE your going to whips cross in north London but it might be Plymouth.

So you get to Plymouth and they do the pre checks and say your fine and send you home.

But your in Plymouth and your kits in Brighton and you live in Birmingham and your wearing an under suit and no shoes.

Or they say you need a treatment and your in the Pot for 6 hours THEN they send you home but your still in Plymouth and your kits in Brighton and you live in Birmingham and your wearing an under suit and no shoes.

Did i mention you have no money on you?


Im one of Arfies buddys i would have no problem driving over 300miles to fetch him from plymouth or were ever he was and yes i do see the point about your gear but surely someone would sort it and dont forget its always replacable, I hope no scrub that I KNOW he would do the same for me.
Its not worth the risk!
Pete

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by Secondopsman

....
Im one of Arfies buddys i would have no problem driving over 300miles to fetch him from plymouth or were ever he was and yes i do see the point about your gear but surely someone would sort it and dont forget its always replacable, I hope no scrub that I KNOW he would do the same for me.
Its not worth the risk!
Pete

That's nice. Except you are both in Plymouth/Belgium as the copper crew say you've both done the same profile and you need to both go in to be on the safe side. Your car has been towed by the council as your ticket has run out and is now in Dorchester car pound (£150 release fee) but your kit and your wallet are in the shop in Portland.

Great.

Chris

[purple vonny]

So perhaps the decision to call for help for a possible bend is based on where your car and wallet are?

Brilliant.

I see where you are coming from but you can't base your decision whether someone needs to go to the chamber upon where their car is.

Fortunately, the skippers I've worked with over the last 14 months are all divers and err on the side of caution. They do have a certain duty of care towards their customers (let's not get into the legal ins and outs of duty of care again) and in the event of a fatality would have to prove that they fulfilled that duty of care, given the knowledge and information they had at the time.

The conscious casualty does have the right to refuse treatment. But that does not absolve the person in charge of the boat from taking all due cautions and appropriate actions.

[chrisch]

Originally Posted by purple vonny

.....
I see where you are coming from but you can't base your decision whether someone needs to go to the chamber upon where their car is.
.....

I agree but neither can the decision be made based on arse-covering and worrying about whether or not your insurance premium might go up a tenner.

What is required is the application of commonsense and a little intelligence. Missing a minute in stops does not make a full blown DCI event with helicopter evacuation. It is unlikely to result in anything at all. The person who missed that one minute stop may well be running a highly conservative deco model and is very comfortable with their missed minute. That's why I disagreed with (and still disagree with) Janos' post.

In fact if it were me that had missed the minute I wouldn't tell anyone. That way the skipper wouldn't know I'd missed it and I wouldn't have to argue with him/her. Nor would some twat start phoning up the CG on their mobile causing me to throw their phone overboard. No one would need an ambulance to have the pony tank removed from their arse and we could all have a nice cup of tea and a laugh and a joke.

Peace and love brothers and sisters. Now peace off

Chris

[MattS]

Originally Posted by Arfie

It really confuses me as to why.

In my case it probably doesn't help I was brought up living above a chemist shop with a constant stream of hysterical parents demanding the ambulance be called immediately (telephones were not so common) for their offspring's minor or imagined ailments.

The point was made on Janos thread that life is not a connected series of absolutes. To test your conviction try changing the terms of your argument - Hazel's cross channel ferry test. I have been on a boat where an extreme case of seasickness was called in, and rightly so in my opinion. I don't think it is necessary to ring in all cases of seasickness though.

Are too proud to risk the helicopter?

Nope.

Do you think you know enough to make a call?

We all know enough to make a call. It is knowing enough not to which is the difficult bit. The answer to that is, sometimes.

Do you think you can better diagnose, than the coastguard/diving doc?

Sometimes. The suspected casualty is in front of me which is an advantage.

What do you lose by calling the coastguard?

If the claims of CG requesting the MCA take measures to put a dive supervisor on every diving charter are at all accurate, I could lose the ability to afford to dive off commercial charters.

If you take charge, refuse to call in and you get it wrong would you be happy to take the (financial) consequences?

If I were to take charge I would not be obstructive about it. I would not be happy to take the financial consequences but my insurance is pretty robust. I would be far less happy with the moral consequence. My views on everyone suing everyone in life in general are best kept for Ranters Corner. No one has to get on the boat and dive so deep that DCI becomes a significant risk...We choose to.

[Steve S]

You could do what I do now and have a grab bag on the boat with everything I would need if I had to be choppered off, including my DAN insurance card [I never dive without it ] and the all important small wash kit and clean underwear

Safe diving,
Steve

[TerryH]

What an absolute load of crock.

Every time I step on a boat and go diving, there is always the chance
(thankfully a small one) that i'll get bent and end up in the pot. Who gives
a **** if I end up 300 miles away. All that matters is that i'm seen,
diagnosed and sorted.

The ONLY criteria is if there is even the mere suggestion that there may be
a problem. A simple call to the CG wont call out the calvary, but it will alert
them to the possibilty that you will be calling a bit later if symptoms get
worse.

As soon as apre-incident logistics are a factor in making the call, sooner or
later you will make the WRONG call.

That's just plain dumb.