Redundancy...

[dave archer]

Originally Posted by aclivity

I don't really subscribe to the opinion that a buddy is enough of an AAS; in UK vis s/he doesn't necessarily need to be very far away to be invisible.

Spot on Mr Aclivity.

Lou has pretty much spoken my mind on the topic above.
Dave.

[Skeletor]

The reg will start to give less gas over a number of breaths, giving three or four breaths for you to signal your ever alert buddy

This is only my personal opinion, but in an OOA situation, would you really want to cut things this fine if there is another option available ?

Before converting to twins, I tried a version of Pauls test a couple of times, I let my buddy get his normal distance away, fully exhaled, and then finned like a bugger to get to his occy for real. On the 4 occasions I have tried this, I 'died' 3 times. On the 4th occasion when I did reach it, I felt as though my lungs would implode.
Granted, in a real situation where the reg would maybee give me a couple of extra breaths, I might have made it every time, but would rather not take the chance.

There is allways going to be the argument that you should never run out of gas in the first place and its an argument that I do agree with, but as many on YD have sadly witnessed, it can and does happen. Its a bit like saying that your car doesn't need seatbelts because you are a good driver and therefore not going to crash.

ATB,

John

[Dave Crampton]

I have one, I use it every dive, regardless of the type of dive. Its now part of my system and when diving abroad, I feel uncomfortable without it, in the same way driving without a seatbelt does. The way I use it, mounted, turned on/off for the dive is irrelevant. Its my configuration and I'm now used to it and comfortable enough that I know what to do should the worst happen. I don't change my configuration because that way everything is in the same place and its second nature should I need it.

I've dived with only a few different divers. I didn't know any of their diving practices/styles when I first dived with them. I suppose a buddy who you dive with 500 times could be trusted to be a 100% AAS should you need them. Until then I'll continune to carry a pony.

Quite a few divers I have dived with use them, but thats not the reason I do. A friend who dives twins recomended one and I trust his experience. There have been statements stating its not for deep, its not for shallow. Well for me, its for all!!, to my max of 35m. (all my dives sub 30 and ramped profile spanding only minutes below 30 so I never dive a Stop Dive. So a pony might not get me to the surface from 30m, it will surley get me to my buddy, even if they choose to drift off for a moment due to a lack of attention.

As for the increased cost, If I was that penny pinching, I'd pack this dambed expensive sport in alltogether

I have not had to use one, to date. I hope I never do. But until then I will carry one.

I think, that If I had to use one I would look back and say 'glad I had one'. If I didn't have one and needed it, could I look back and say I wish I'd carried one? not from my grave I couldn't.

Just my humble opinion.

Dave C

That old chesnut, Something and nothing, I'd rather carry something.

[Ratbag]

Forgive my ignorance but why would you have a pony turned off? Surely, as Dave just said, if you need it, you don't want to be faffing around with the valve??

Is this a stupid question?

[dave archer]

Originally Posted by Ratbag

Forgive my ignorance but why would you have a pony turned off? Surely, as Dave just said, if you need it, you don't want to be faffing around with the valve??

Is this a stupid question?

Not a stupid question at all - there's no such thing, etc.

I agree with Dave - switched on, no faffing.
Some like it switched off to avoid free flows, I think. Personally I'd rather have to switch off in the event of free flow than switch on in the event of emergency need of air...

Dave.

[And]

Hi

You have it turned off so that it is protected. After all it is theoretically your life saving supply isn't it? If it is tankmounted then you have exactly the same downsides as the main tank itself, ie. it can lose gas without you knowing, and then when you need it, it is empty or has an inadequate supply. If it is turned on then it can freeflow. In fact, turned on and backmounted all of the perceived weaknesses in your main tank are duplicated, except now of course you have something on your back just waiting to catch on line, kelp, wrecks whatever.

You only need to crack the knob to get it working again. The reg is pressurised as well (the tank has been turned on to pressurise the reg and then turned off) so you get a breath immediately. It is how we carry and configure deco bottles. Sideslinging means that the valve and gauge is right in front of you. It is streamlined and easy to take off or disentangle if need be.

Hope that helps

Andy

[Phoenix]

I use a Luxfer S30 (4.6l I think) in Thailand as a pony, a few of the guys working as videographers use pony's too but you can't rent them from any of the shops on Phuket that I'm aware of (though you can rent 7l stages from one tech outfit).

I don't see the point in carrying a tiny spare (such as smallest Spare Air), if you're going to take a Pony make it worthwhile.

Ian

[Mark Chase]

Originally Posted by And

They don't. Where do you get that from.

BSAC reports more incidents involving bad buoyancy and smb use than OOA, and most deaths are attributed to solo diving or seperation. People diving beyond their capabilities, and outside their comfort zone, diving deep on air. From Doing It Wrong, generally.

Andy

How does diver separation kill you???

How does solo diving kill you???

Very Very few diver have had their deaths attributed to deep on air. What’s deep? 30m? 50m? this was considered normal advanced diving up untill recently. Profesional divers still do that and more.

Having done deep air, solo diving and obviously been separated from my buddy (see solo diving) I am amazed I am still alive

A large amount of incidents on the BSAC incident list started for other reasons and ended with a diver running out of or low on gas and getting hurt or dead.

Diver makes it to the surface then sinks back down for example. Well its difficult to stay at the surface if your negative and have no air to inflate your jacket with.

Divers becomes separated and is later found dead. He / She died from running out of air due to increased breathing rate and failing to monitor gas supply due to panicking after loosing his her buddy.

The Incident last year when the diver became separated on the shot and was not seen again was an OOA but the report isn’t able to confirm that so its not mentioned as a cause of death. One of the others on the dive who saw his gauge showing empty would confirm is was an OOA but without equipment to examine they wont post that.

Ponys are no more dificult to master than dry suit diving so dont make a fuss over the skills required its a safety issue pure and simple and tough if it costs a bit and takes a few practice dives to sort out.

Don’t put your DIR principles on to inexperienced divers. To be a qualified DIR diver you have to have a very high degree of basic skill and buddy skills. Divers are not born with these so you shouldn’t impose advanced diving styles on to divers with out similar experience. As I said when you are that good perhaps you don’t need a pony any more.

ATB

Mark Chase

[Skeletor]

If it is tankmounted then you have exactly the same downsides as the main tank itself, ie. it can lose gas without you knowing, and then when you need it, it is empty or has an inadequate supply. If it is turned on then it can freeflow. In fact, turned on and backmounted all of the perceived weaknesses in your main tank are duplicated, except now of course you have something on your back just waiting to catch on line, kelp, wrecks whatever.

So whats the difference between this and twins, manifolded or otherwise ? I doubt very much if you dive with your left post isolated, in fact, if you follow this argument through to its conclusion, shouldn't you in fact be diving sidemounts rather than twins?

ATB,

John

[And]

Originally Posted by Mark Chase

How does diver separation kill you???

How does solo diving kill you???

Very Very few diver have had their deaths attributed to deep on air. What’s deep? 30m? 50m? this was considered normal advanced diving up untill recently. Profesional divers still do that and more.

...


Ponys are no more dificult to master than dry suit diving so dont make a fuss over the skills required its a safety issue pure and simple and tough if it costs a bit and takes a few practice dives to sort out.

Don’t put your DIR principles on to inexperienced divers. To be a qualified DIR diver you have to have a very high degree of basic skill and buddy skills. Divers are not born with these so you shouldn’t impose advanced diving styles on to divers with out similar experience. As I said when you are that good perhaps you don’t need a pony any more.

ATB

Mark Chase

Hi

Here is the link.

BSAC Incident overview

Here is an interesting quote regarding the DCI incidents.

As reported many times before, poor buoyancy control is at the heart of the majority of these cases. Divers are failing to correctly control their ascent, especially in the critical last 10m zone and ending up with rapid ascents and/or missed decompression stops. Very often the diver is using a drysuit and is unable to prevent a buoyant ascent.
Divers continue to have problems with the deployment of delayed surface marker buoys - reels jam, equipment gets caught and divers are dragged to the surface. The very piece of equipment that is supposed to increase the safety of an ascent is having just the reverse effect.
This is an area where more training and practice is clearly needed.

1. Diving deep on air kills you when you have a problem and the narcosis makes it worse. There are so many other things wrong with deep air but I can't be bothered to go into them, maybe later.

2. Solo diving kills you when you have a problem and you do not have a buddy to help.

3. Separation kills you when you do not ascend after separation but decide to carry on regardless and then point 2 applies or you simply do not have faith in the seperation protocol and panic.

I am not making a fuss over skills, just providing an impartial opinion, which yours plainly isn't. I have read more stories about problems with ponies than without and therefore I do not view them with rose tinted shades, as others tend to.

Please don't tell me what to do or not to do. If you hadn't noticed, I was not born with the ability to breathe underwater and neither was any other diver who chooses DIR as a diving system. Contrary to popular belief we do not have telepathic capabilities and we still wear our underwear on the inside of our clothes so we are not superhuman either. I was taught buddy diving by BSAC and I was taught how to monitor my gas by BSAC. I regularly instruct for BSAC and encourage my students to be the best divers they can be, whether they choose DIR or not. Practice makes perfect.

Your points about instructing beginners with ponies shows a lack of experience in instructing people how to dive. Just this weekend a newly qualified ocean diver turned up with a pony and was massively overweighted which caused a potentially dangerous situation on a dive, as he also followed the tradition of using drysuit for buoyancy, another ill-informed diving method, but when overweighted, positively dabgerous. He was trying new kit, supposedly safer kit, yet had not thought it through, probably because he just read it on the internet, or listened too much to the dive shop sales person. The novice I dived with had a great time just by keeping it simple and monitoring them closely. As you believe passionately about ponies so I believe passionately in keeping things simple, and simple works more of the time IME.

Andy