Alternative fuelled vehicles

[SilvaFish]

Hello,
It's that time of year again where the bonuses are due out and am after a new car (ok, ok, so the bonuses is an excuse? ) So, looking at how Labour are in AGAIN and petrol prices will no doubt rocket to a squillion quid per gallon, has anybody had any experiences with alternative fuelled cars (whether dual lpg/petrol or petrol/electric), and I will be very interested to hear any thoughts, whether same performance as petrol (town or motorway), cost/saving, availability/places to fill up, converting a current car, well, any thoughts really.

Thanks guys, anything to save will be spent on diving, so there's the relevance to YD!

Cheers,
Lou

[NotDeadYet]

I've had a few LPG 4x4's. On an ordinary car I wouldn't bother unless it came that way from the factory. Despite what the LPG Assoc says, there is always hassle with the kit as they are generic rather than designed for a specific car. You know the pluses, clean fuel, cheap, etc., but there are numerous downsides.

First you lose space. That may be the spare wheel or boot space, or you have a split LPG/petrol tank which means both are undersized. In this case you need to plan long journeys with military precision (especially with opening hours) and any deviation can leave you stuck.

Second, more importantly, many engines are not suited for it. The installers will tell you that any car that runs unleaded will run LPG. True, but not in the long term. Many engines, especially Japanese, have the exhaust valves made from soft alloys. LPG burns very hot compared with petrol, the valve heats up and every time it hits the valve seat it burns off a little of the surface. The valve seat sinks further and further into the surrounding metal, it's called valve recession. Think repeatedly hitting a hot nail into a bar of chocolate. Eventually the valve seat burns out completely, the whole valve collapses and the repair is super-expensive. It is possible to retro-fit a hardened valve assembly but these are often not much better and still very expensive. The LPG companies might try to flog you a lubrication system (Flashlube) but it makes little difference. Avoid a company that suggests such systems. The engine will run happily on LPG in the short term but long term it will eventually die. It's essential to look into it carefully, the Aussies have been using it for years and have many forums about LPG car use.

The additional heat produced can be counterproductive to the "clean engine" claims too. The cylinders can take extra wear and tear because the hotter fuel makes the oil breakdown and form crystalline deposits on the sides. Maintenance really needs to be spot on, don't believe the claims that you can lengthen service intervals.

Finally, as I mentioned, these are generic kits so there is a bit of "cobbling" to get it to fit. At best it can make servicing a pain as the engine compartment gets very tight, at worst it can interfere with engine operation, such as parts rubbing on each other, wiring getting burnt through, etc. A lot of LPG companies come and go so the place you got it fitted may not be there when it goes wrong. It's also a pain when it comes to MOT time. Most modern cars have a computer controlled engine, the LPG system has to override it which causes problems with emissions sometimes. It's always worth a visit to the LPG installer first. I've never had emissions pass first time which is a bit worrying when it is supposed to be a cleaner fuel.

In terms of performance, I never noticed anything different but that said I had it in a 4L engine last time, in a smaller car that may not be true. There is about a 10% increase in consumption litre for litre. Don't ever buy a car that has been converted without the proper certification, your insurers won't cover you and the work may have been bodged. Some may not ask for the cert but if you have an accident you can bet they will.

In my dealings with LPG fitters, an awful lot of them have been total scoundrels that are just interested in parting you from your cash. On the other hand some are very good. It's very hard to tell who is good and who isn't though. A good sign is usually if they sell LPG fuel as well as installing, it means they stay around and people must be going back to them.

On the whole, LPG is great but you need to be aware of the drawbacks. With a car with a factory fitted system then I'd imagine the above points wouldn't apply but I've no experience there.

Hope that helps a bit,

Stuart

[Bantam]

I've 2 diesel cars (both Peugeot HDi's) and they're great on economy (60mpg), very cheap to insure, reasonably fast (140Bhp for the 407, 90Bhp for the 306) and cheap tax seeing as the CO2 levels are less than half that of a petrol car (155g/km for the 407 and 120g/km for the 306). I can set the cruise at 74 on the motorway doing just over 1500 revs in 6th gear at 65mpg.

The newer pug diesels also have a FAP system on them which reduces particulates to 'below measurable levels' and increases efficiency.

The Mondeo TDCi is also the same engine (although the insurance costs are more being a mondeo strangely).

[SilvaFish]

I've used diesel in the past and not really noticed it to be more economical, but did find pulling away that the front end felt heavy and that annoyed me a bit. It was a hired Peugot 306 1.8 TDi. As for the lpg, I was veering towards getting a factory fitted one rather than converting my little Fiesta (i am aware that I would lose the spare tyre space)! I am quite surprised that the lpg fitters have been akinned to fly-by-night cowboys, but then are there is no regulations yet? So even with a 10% extra litre-age, still looking to save a good 50% on fuel bills which is impressive for me as I commute quite a bit. Thanks for the info guys!

Cheers,
Lou

[Lou]

How about one of these. The Mayor of Oxford was "talked" into getting one instead of a Rover or BMW..It has won several awards and, if I rememebr correctly, got a good review from Quentin Wilson??

Lou

http://www.toyota.com/prius/index.html

[Bantam]

The prius is a good car now. The original ones looked like mongmobile prototype jetson cars with the covered rear wheels.

There's loads around in Los Angeles because of their environmental rules. The hollywood stars have started to cotton on to the tax dodge.. Just as long as you can cope with the fact that sometimes they sound like a bumper car, and that kids don't hear them coming (so an accident risk) when they're running mainly on electric.

If you thrash the tits off these priuses they still only do 30mpg

Oh - and this zero emission thing only counts if you use stuff like rapeseed oil to make the diesel you put in a diesel car - LPG isn't ZE friendly

[Ainsleyberryman]

I bought a new Transit last year for carrying my dive and motorcycle kit around in and looked into the LPG engine option.

Basically decided against it on cost and lack of filling stations. I would have to do several years worth of driving (at about 25k pa) before it became cheaper. Assuming I could always fill it up with LPG - which you cant.

Just drive it more economically and you will save more. Remember when the fuel blockades were around, my motorbike/car and van did loads more miles per gallon then just because I drove them sensibly.

I am interested in running the van on vegetable oil though.

[Narked@50]

Hi Lou

I had a Ford Galaxy converted about 4 years ago to LPG and found it was a saving of around 30-40% on fuel, but it was £1500 to put in, so I rekon it took me 2 and a half years to break even, so I probably saved about £500 when servises are taken into account over the 4 years. (you need to get the gas done sepatate and it was always rough after a dealer service)

This year I bought another Galaxy but went for the 1.9 TDI, better than the last one and works out a tiny bit more to run but with less hassle i.e. one service, 450 miles between fills etc. and the new gas conversions are £2.5k due to emissions legislation, and I would never get that back.

Just buy a diesel, they are so much quieter than they used to be, that's what done it for me.

James

[Jim Shaw]

I've recently bought factory fitted LPG 3 year old Vauxhall Astra van, and love it,

I can do about 300 miles for about £14.

try this link, and work out just how much money you will save each year

http://vauxhall.co.uk/dualfuel/index.jhtml

[NotDeadYet]

I loved my Cherokee conversion too, I've regretted selling it ever since. LPG is definitely worth it if you get it done well and in the right car, or factory fitted. I've heard the Vauxhall LPGs are very good.